Are you concerned about police "no knock" warrants?

A water key? LOL. What the hell is a water key?

Water keys should be illegal unless the cops first get a water cutoff warrant from a judge. What about a flush key? Cut off their crapper, too. The whole scheme could fall under "plumbing warrants."
 
The video taping is a great idea. With todays technology, a camera could easily be attached or integrated with the helmets SWAT officers wear, and not even be slightly bulky. The camera would see and hear what each officer does.
 
I'll never be convinced that 'no-knocks' are needed. If the agency serving the warrent has enough evidence to convince a judge then they have enough to convince a jury.
JMHO P5
 
I'll never be convinced that 'no-knocks' are needed. If the agency serving the warrent has enough evidence to convince a judge then they have enough to convince a jury.
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Spoken like someone who has absolutely no understanding of probable cause or the burden of proof in a criminal case.
 
I have a big problem with No-Knock warrants. I believe it's evidence of the further erosion of our civil liberties.
I also have a problem with the some of the people doing these "raids", they are often pseudo-military types with poor training and even less common sense.
If someone were to show up in my house "predawn" and break in unannounced they'd be a whole lot of API rounds going off in their direction.
 
hags, I'm curious. How do you know about how much or what quality training most SWAT teams have? Maybe you have met some in your home town, or watch Dallas SWAT on TV, but both are a pretty poor judge of the SWAT community as a whole. If you go to a restaurant and get a bad waiter, you might not go there again. But can you honestly look in the mirror and say "that restaurant hires bad waiters".

That's great you have such a stalwart opinion about no-knock warrants, but your comment on the people doing them seems like you could not possibly have that based in real fact. More likely just one bad experience, or even just seeing them on TV.

None of that was meant in a churlish manner, so if you would like to explain your line of reasoning, I'm all ears.
 
If someone were to show up in my house "predawn" and break in unannounced they'd be a whole lot of API rounds going off in their direction.
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Gee........do you suppose that is one reason the SWAT team makes the initial entrance?
 
All probably part of the New World Order and things to come. Cops and Swat programs are on TV all day and night now just giving the people some idea what the LEOs will do if they have to come to your house.

When the law is passed to turn in you weapons, most people will have flash backs of 20 cops breaking down their doors and throwing everyone on the floor while their home is being distroyed looking for all those AK47s.
After we're 100% secured and have a chip in our neck, this will be a perfect world.
 
A water key? LOL. What the hell is a water key?
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The tool used to shut off the water to the house at the meter in municipalities.

Actually, they can flush quite a bit in that time. The smart criminals keep buckets of water next to he toilet and just pour the dope and water contiuously. The toilet doesn't stop as long as water is going in.
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Of course, anything is 'possible', but in the instances which we are talking about... the granny in atlanta, etc... it was a case of a small amount of dope. Perhaps a one flush amount, and in that light and MHO, not worth no knock.

In the case of a felony distribution, a NK may be the best route to go.

But then again, that should not be the default MO when there may be 'guns'.
 
I think the "no announce" raid is just the same thing as a "no knock" raid. But, I think "no announce" is a misnomer. I do not believe that police are actually allowed to do a raid without announcing themselves as police.

In other words, they have to say, "Police! Get down!" (announcing themselves). But they can burst in without knocking and waiting a reasonable period.
 
being the son of a cop I usually agree with police tactics. however before he died my dad DID warn me that police tactics are becoming much less loving of civilians. he cited a trend towards "us against them" attitude and a general erosion of public rights. No, this is NOT a police-bashing thread
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I must agree with the above. I've always been a strong supporter of our LEOs - my wife's two brothers are retired from our local CSPD. In the 1960s and 70s, I was practically the official police surgeon and most of the department and I were close personal friends. It took a little time convincing them not to apologize for their concealed weapons in my office but I managed.

That said, I have become increasingly concerned with the "militarization" of our civilian police departments - starting with the increasing use of making references to "police" as opposed to "civilians" - cops are not military and, as such are civilians with the rest of us - which only reinforces the "us vs them" mentality that seems to have become more prevalent. I spent over 8 years of my life as a member of a military organization - about half active duty and the rest organized reserve - an I regarded myself - even then as a civilian who happens to be in uniform at that moment.

We have many more military style uniformed SWAT teams than we really need - it seems to me we could have "designated marksmen" in ordinary police uniforms but properly armed and trained.

The "no knock raids" seem related to the drug war and the fear any drug evidence might be flushed down the drain if the warrant were served "normally" and, even if the number of "accidental" raids on the wrong homes are small - incremental increasing disregard for our citizens and their personal property rights is just plain wrong and should be reined in - in my opinion -FWIW.

:D
 
Stage2, that's right, I've no such knowledge or experinence. But, isn't that the main idea behind our common law system?
If the law enforcement agents have the proof to convince a judge that the target of thier investigation is breaking the law, then they already have evidence to get a conviction and the criminal justice system needs to be adjusted to these facts.
If the bulk of their case hinges on discovery then it should not be allowed to procede. The evidence should be in hand when the arrest is done.
As I've said this is just my opinion and it is based on my limited knowledge.
 
Spoken like someone who has absolutely no understanding of probable cause or the burden of proof in a criminal case.
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Stage, isn't probable cause a requirement to get a warrant issued in the first place?

badbob
 
Thanks, Win71, that does clear things up. It looks like the 4th A is as dead as the rest of the Constitution. God help us all.

badbob
 
In order to be convicted of a crime, the state must convince a jury of your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Probable cause, while not a standard used to weigh evidence in a courtroom, is a far FAR lower standard.

As a result, the state may very well have probable cause to search or arrest someone, but they may fall very short of the standard needing to convict them.

Practically speaking I don't know how you would be able to arrest anyone if you needed to show their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in order to obtain a warrant since you would need to show the very evidence to the judge that you asking him to allow you to search for.

Philosophically speaking it doesn't make any sense. PC is there so officers don't go around searching or arresting on a whim. However its also a moderate standard so that we can get the bad guys into court and build a case.

I'm not quite sure what Bob means by the death of the 4th. PC has always and still is required for a warrant.
 
No Knock

If someone kicks down my door in the middle of the night, I find it difficult to feel sorry for them. Friends don't break into a home. Criminals do. This trend has to stop.
 
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