Are you concerned about police "no knock" warrants?

Without getting into a huge philosophical debate, what exactly is the purpose of a supreme court if not to determine the constitutionality of things

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution, are null and void." Chief Justice Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 5, U.S. (Cranch) 137, 174,176

Its been this way long before our grandfathers were born, so there's no sense in arguing about it.

The Constitution was written "long before our grandfathers were born" also, and it's supposed to be the supreme law of the land, or so we're told. Maybe W. was right when he called it "Just a GD piece of paper".

badbob
 
Why? If its legal, then you have no complaints if its used. Again, we don't enforce "right" we enforce legal.

You can't complain that your rights are being violated on one hand, and on the other had say legality doesn't matter.
Wait...so just because the laws put in place by the Brady Campaign are technically legal we can't complain about them? We can't voice our displeasure that our rights are being trampled upon? We can't discuss the concept that maybe these things go against the concept of a free society?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean we have to accept it, doesn't mean we can't fight for change.

"Laws may change but justice is justice." Odo, DS9
 
Prohibition was enacted and repealed by the proper process. Its the way the system should have and was designed to work.
It wasn't just repealed because the folks in charge changed their mind, it was repealed because the people voiced their opinions and made it known that such laws were wrong. That's what many of us are doing. I will continue to voice my opinions that anti-drug, anti-gun, anti-speech, anti-gay, anti-religion, anti-capitalism laws are inherently wrong and are detrimental to a free society because that is what I believe. I will do so until either every mind is changed or I'm prevented, beyond my power, from doing so. I would expect anyone else who genuinely believes in freedom and liberty to do the same. Accepting the status quo is exactly what the founding fathers fought against.
 
Wait...so just because the laws put in place by the Brady Campaign are technically legal we can't complain about them? We can't voice our displeasure that our rights are being trampled upon? We can't discuss the concept that maybe these things go against the concept of a free society?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean we have to accept it, doesn't mean we can't fight for change.


There is a specific amendment addressing the right to own firearms. I can't find one for pot or crack or stuff like that. Short of that, congress has the authority to regulate or ban drugs. You don't have to like it, but it is legal.
 
Legal or not, bad laws shouldn't be obeyed, and should be contended.

See Secdef. I told you.

People who go to jury duty should educate themselves on nullification.
http://www.fija.org/

Osborne. Please cite me a SINGLE case in the ENTIRE history of American jurisprudence that lends creedence to the theory that the function of a jury is not to decide guilt or innocence, but to nullify laws.

One. Just one.
 
Please cite me a SINGLE case in the ENTIRE history of American jurisprudence that lends creedence to the theory that the function of a jury is not to decide guilt or innocence, but to nullify laws.

One. Just one.

Untold numbers of cases in Southern courts in the 1960s and earlier in which juries decided to not apply the law to white defendants, regardless of guilt or innocence.
 
There is a long history of the right of Juries to determine not only Fact but Law, all the way back to the signing of the Magna Carta. But let's review some of the more "recent" opinions on the Powers and Rights of Juries, shall we?
Chief Justice John Jay said:
It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision.....you have a right to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy.
Justices Gray and Shiras said:
It is universally conceded that a verdict of acquittal, although rendered against the instructions of the judge, is final, and cannot be set aside; and consequently that the jury have the legal power to decide for themselves the law involved in the general issues of guilty or not guilty.
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said:
The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both the law and the facts.
4th Circuit Court of Appeals said:
We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge.We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge.... If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence... If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision.
I'm sure that you will recognize that in Sparf, I used a quote from the dissent. In that case, the Majority properly refused a murder defendant's request that his jury be told they could convict him of manslaughter out of leniency, even though he conceded that there was no evidence to support a finding of guilt on such a lesser charge! 156 U.S. at 99. From this single case comes the doctrine that Juries need not be informed of their Right to try the Law as well as the Facts of the case.

There was one other case that went to lengths to describe the Powers of the Jury. That case was US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972).
[The jury has an] unreviewable and irreversible power...to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and instructions of the judge; for example, acquittals under the fugitive slave law.
Dougherty remains today as the seminal case on Jury Nullification, reiterating Sparf, but in more modern terms.

The jury is there, by design, "to prevent oppression by the Government" and to "protect against unfounded criminal charges brought to eliminate enemies and against judges too responsive to the voice of higher authority." Duncan v. Louisiana, 391 U.S. 145, 155-56 (1968). The jury's role "as a check on official power" is in fact "its intended function." Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79, 86-87 n.8 (1986). The jury injects "a slack into the enforcement of law, tempering its rigor by the mollifying influence of current ethical conventions." United States ex rel. McCann v. Adams, 126 F.2d 774, 775-76 (2d Cir. 1942) (Learned Hand, J.). That is why a directed verdict for the state would be not merely unconstitutional--it "would be totally alien to our notions of criminal justice," since "the discretionary act of jury nullification would not be permitted." Gregg v. Georgia, 428 U.S. 153, 199 n.50 (1976) (plurality opinion).
 
Antipitas, thanks for saving me the time of posting the relevant points.

I think history is quite clear to those who go looking without logs lodged in their eye.

That last statement could be taken as derogatory, or insulting, but it is not meant to. I am simply saying it is easy to "wrongly" interpret the Constitution and Bill of Rights if one does not put into context the surrounding papers of those involved in its writings. I think stage 2 is caught up in the here and now, as opposed to the actual solidity of the foundation for which hear and now rest upon.

This is a great speech given by Dr. Edwin Viera, Jr., Ph.D., J.D.:
http://www.vlrc.org/articles/154.html

A little bit about Dr. Viera:
http://www.vlrc.org/authors/105.html

Now I am hoping Mr. Stage2 is not going to also attack my credibility, via villainizing Dr. Viera as being a "left-wing kook" as he did my bringing up "Peter Irons" in the War Powers thread.

Regardless of what you think of Irons, or Viera, they logically and clearly reference all of their claims, accusations and show their argument with no intellectual dishonesty that I have been able to detect, via research of my own.
 
Thanks Antipitas, but he did only ask for one :)! I see a trend by our law enforcement officers to see the 'law' as something alive in and of itself. It reminds me of the way Judge Dread looked at it.....up until the time he was arrested of course. The law is made by humans (actually by politicians so this is a strech of the term) and therefore is imperfect. We as individuals know what is 'right' and 'wrong'. Whether we choose to follow that which we know is true or not (ethics) is our choice and why we have a police force. Any further enforcement than that and a nation becomes a police state in my opinion. And lets face facts a police state is a nation of laws.

Shawn
 
Finally, someone with som cajones.

Lets start from the start. The premise is that the purpose of a jury is not to nullify laws, but to decide guilt or innocence.

With that in mind, lets start with Moylan. From the opinion...

We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge.

To spell it out, nullification isn't the intent nor the purpose of the jury. It is an inherent byproduct of the system since we are not going to inquire into the minds of jurors. If a juror acquits because of the facts, or the law, or because of the color of the defendants hair, we simply will not know. But we are going to abide by their decision.

This is a far cry from saying that jury nullification is a duty and function of jurors.

Continuing from Moylan...

…by clearly stating to the jury that they may disregard the law, telling them that they may decide according to their prejudices or consciences (for there is no check to insure that the judgment is based upon conscience rather than prejudice), we would indeed be negating the rule of law in favor of the rule of lawlessness. This should not be allowed. Id.

Which is exactly what I stated above. If jury nullification is a right and a duty then the jury should be informed. If it is merely a necessary byproduct of our system then the court should not address it. Moylan supports the latter.

Continuing on in U.S. v. Krzyske (1988), the jury asked the judge about jury nullification. The judge responded "There is no such thing as valid jury nullification." The jury convicted the defendant, and the judge's answer was upheld on appeal.

In 2001, a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving statutory rape led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law.

And going all the way back to the MAJORITY opinion in Sparf, the court ruled that a trial judge has no responsibility to inform the jury of the ability to nullify laws.


Jury nullification is not a right per say and certianly not a duty or function of a jury. You can't remove jury nullification from our system and still maintain the sanctity of the jury box. Its a byproduct, and its here to stay. But is is NOT a right or a duty. That much is clear. The vast majority of states include anti-nullification paragraphs in their pattern jury charges. Judges reiterate this point as well.

SCOTUS has never ruled on this point, but given the state of the law over the last 50 years I'm confident that they would reach a similar conclusion to mine.

The fact remains, not in ANY law school, or ANY court room, or ANY legislature will you find them teaching or endorsing jury nullification as a viable right or duty of a jury.
 
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Antipitas, thanks for saving me the time of posting the relevant points.

I think history is quite clear to those who go looking without logs lodged in their eye.

I have nothing lodged in my eye. I have been through law school, worked for judges, talked with some of this nations brighest law professors and even had the chance to meet a supreme court justice. Oddly enough all of them fall into my camp.

That last statement could be taken as derogatory, or insulting, but it is not meant to. I am simply saying it is easy to "wrongly" interpret the Constitution and Bill of Rights if one does not put into context the surrounding papers of those involved in its writings. I think stage 2 is caught up in the here and now, as opposed to the actual solidity of the foundation for which hear and now rest upon.

Your statement wasn't derogotory, just merely wrong. I'm not interpreting anything in the constitution. The constitution doesn't say anything about juries other than the fact that one is entitled to a speedy trial and that they will be judged by a jury of their peers. Thats it. It says NOTHING about jury nullification or anything of the kind. Thats why we have case law and statutes.

Its completely disingenuous to sit here and say that you're viewpoint is based on the constitution when the constitution is utterly silent on the subject. External sources and writings are fine for resolving ambiguities to some extent. They are NOT acceptable for filling complete voids. Its clear that the framers left out certian things intentionally because they intended the new government to fill the void. Such is the case here.



Now I am hoping Mr. Stage2 is not going to also attack my credibility, via villainizing Dr. Viera as being a "left-wing kook" as he did my bringing up "Peter Irons" in the War Powers thread.

Regardless of what you think of Irons, or Viera, they logically and clearly reference all of their claims, accusations and show their argument with no intellectual dishonesty that I have been able to detect, via research of my own.

I have said nothing of your credibility (other than the fact that you believe that you don't need to follow laws because YOU feel they are unjust). Irons is a left leaning nut. I was there. I sat through his classes. I read his books. I personally spoke with him. Irons, Howard Zinn, and Noam Chomsky are all cut from the same cloth.

We are talking about a man who tried to appeal the conviction of a murderer NOT because he thought the man wasn't guilty, but because the system was racially biased. This is how I define insanity.

As I stated in the other thread, I am in a far better position to make judgments of the man than probably anyone else on this board.
 
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Osborn wrote: "Legal or not, bad laws shouldn't be obeyed, and should be contended."
See Secdef. I told you.

I immediately withdrawal my protestation! :D

I prefer to vote people in to change legislation rather than risk liberty and hope that I can get to the supreme court to overturn it. I misinterpreted his intent.

Osborn has taken Walden Pond and set it on fire!!! :confused:
 
I've had this argument before. So let me take one thing at a time. First...

SCOTUS has never ruled on this point, but given the state of the law over the last 50 years I'm confident that they would reach a similar conclusion to mine.
Emphasis, mine.

Actually, CJ John Jay did, in his instructions to the Jury in Georgia v. Brailsford, 3 Dall 1 (1794). I believe I sort of quoted from that one (This has never been questioned nor overturned), but see the more complete quote later in this post. The presumption of the right of the Jury to "determine the law" is from several common law sources.

To be fair, let's simply review what our founders have said:

"It is not only his [the juror's] right, but his duty . . . to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court." John Adams

"I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet imagined by man by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution." Thomas Jefferson

"The friends and adversaries of the plan of the [Constitutional] convention, if they agree on nothing else, concur at least in the value they set upon the trial by jury; or if there is any difference between them it consists of this: the former regard it as a valuable safeguard to liberty, the latter represent it as the very palladium of free government." Alexander Hamilton

"If it [jury power] is not law, it is better than law, it ought to be law, and will always be law wherever justice prevails." Ben Franklin

Then we have Noah Webster, whose purpose in publishing a dictionary was to preserve the meaning of the language used in the Constitution, in his first Dictionary of the English Language (1828), included the following in his definition of "jury":

"Petty juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and the fact in criminal prosecutions."

Having written this, there are some caveats that go along with this "power" of the Jury:

* Jury judgment of law can operate in only one direction - that of mercy. It cannot create new law, nor may jurors convict under nonexistent law, or escalate charges.

* Jury refusal to apply a law does not abolish it. A jury may be merciful only in the case before it.

* Jury refusal to apply a law does not set precedent, nor can a jury declare a law unconstitutional.

* Jury nullification is an important way to inform governmental representatives about the changing conscience and values of the community, free from special interest pressure.

* Fully informed jurors can better dispense justice, thereby preventing people from being imprisoned wrongly and reducing prison overcrowding.

STAGE 2 said:
Jury nullification is not a right per say and certianly not a duty or function of a jury. You can't remove jury nullification from our system and still maintain the sanctity of the jury box. Its a byproduct, and its here to stay. But is is NOT a right or a duty. That much is clear. The vast majority of states include anti-nullification paragraphs in their pattern jury charges. Judges reiterate this point as well.

But it is a power of the Jury. You may not think all of the above conclusive, but our Founders most certainly did. Remember one thing, up until Sparf, all criminal juries were told of their powers and duties. John Jay set that stage! Let me give you the complete qoute:

The most quoted instruction empowering a jury to judge the law comes from a civil case. In a rare jury trial in the United States Supreme Court, Chief Justice John Jay, speaking for a unanimous Court, instructed the jury: “The facts comprehended in the case are agreed; the only point that remains, is to settle what is the law of the land arising from those facts; and on that point, it is proper, that the opinion of the court should be given. It is fortunate, on the present, as it must be on every occasion, to find the opinion of the court unanimous: we entertain no diversity of sentiment; and we have experienced no difficulty in uniting in the charge, which it is my province to deliver.

“It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of fact; it is, on the other hand, presumable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully within your power of decision.”
Georgia v. Brailsford, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 1 (1794)

The only Supreme Court Justice ever impeached, Samuel Chase, was charged with denying the right of jurors to judge the law. History is a wonderful subject, yes?

The fact remains, not in ANY law school, or ANY court room, or ANY legislature will you find them teaching or endorsing jury nullification as a viable right or duty of a jury.

In simple terms then. Because it is not taught, does not invalidate the concept as it was originally thought. We can certainly see such things in our public school system today.

And with that, we are now severely off topic.
 
Even if I agreed with everything you stated, there is nothing in the constitution which speaks to the role of juries. As a result it is malleable according to the various judicial opinions and statutes enacted.

Everything you stated is from the 18th century. The state of the law today takes an anti-nullification stance. Its been this way for a very long time and isn't likely to change.

And even Justice Jay himself understood that the role of the jury was, by its nature, going to be able to take into account the validity of the law. Hence this statement...On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of fact; it is, on the other hand, presumable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully within your power of decision
 
Well, if they repealed the 2nd by valid process I would be angry but would have nothing to complain about. If not then I would have a valid legal stand.

I'm sure the government can twist the 2nd as much as they've twisted the commerce clause.
 
* Jury judgment of law can operate in only one direction - that of mercy. It cannot create new law, nor may jurors convict under nonexistent law, or escalate charges.

Making it perfectly legal.

* Jury refusal to apply a law does not abolish it. A jury may be merciful only in the case before it.

The only effect of this is that if it occurs too often, it will let the prosecutor know that the public is getting ready to vote him OUT if he keeps it up.

* Jury refusal to apply a law does not set precedent, nor can a jury declare a law unconstitutional.

Again making it consistent with the legal system.

* Jury nullification is an important way to inform governmental representatives about the changing conscience and values of the community, free from special interest pressure.

And that is exactly what it is for. No other part of government does that.

* Fully informed jurors can better dispense justice, thereby preventing people from being imprisoned wrongly and reducing prison overcrowding.

So much to be said in favor of that last point. How many of us whine about having to defend ourselves against violent criminals? Broadcast the legality of jury nullification and we'll turn mere pot smokers and porn lookers and prostitutes and johns loose and make more room to keep the truly dangerous in jail longer.
 
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