Any reason to use anything bigger than a 243 for deer?

[jimbob86]

re: Big deer in TX .....

Without carefull and intensive management (including aggressive predator control, culling undesirable deer, high fences and supplemental feeding), even the "big bucks" of the Texas Hill Country would not exist...... hot climates with limited forage make for small deer ..... colder climates with nearly unlimited forage make for bigger deer.

Small animals have more surface area in relation to their mass, and thus deal with heat better.


Large animals have less surface area in relation to their mass and so deal with cold better .....and can store more energy as fat, as well.

 

[cerberus65]

"Any reason to use anything bigger than a 243 for deer?"

Sure, if you _want_ to...




I love my .243 (super comfortable to shoot) but I also love my .30-06 (slicker bolt and more weather-resistant). Why did my .30-06 shoot last weekend's deer? Because my .243 shot the previous one and it was the .30-06's turn.

 

[Paul B.]

I have never shot a deer with a .243 but I have seen a few taken with the cartridge. When I lived in Nevada better than 35 years ago, some of the kids that were members of our church wanted to hunt. However either dad was too busy or just did not hunt so I volunteered to take them. I taught them to shoot with my .22 and then my .243. back then we had a fairly long season but since it's been 30 years since I've moved I dunno what the season's length is these days. I do remember seeing five deer taken with my .243. One was a deop dead on the spot DRT. Very impressive. The other four however ran of various distances before expiring, perfectly normal reactions to well placed hits. Most went 50 yards or less. One deer however not only ran more that 200 yards but ran into a fence, backed up and hit it again before expiring. One thing we did as part of the kids training is when they went to get their game, we looked for and followed whatever blood trail there was. Didn't need to as we saw where they all fell as it was fairly open country on a private ranch will not much brush.
I believe all the deer except the 200 yard runner would have been easily found anyway if there had been more cover but I fear the long runner would have been lost due to the very sparse blood trail. FWIW, the bullet used on all deer was the 100 gr. Hornady spire point of the period. It may or may not have been an Interlock. I coached each kid shooting so that every one shot at an undisturbed animal broadside in the chest cavity. Those kids did real well following my instruction notwithstanding the buck fever.
Paul B.

 

[Been there]

''Brian in terminal ballistics there is no such thing as a free lunch, ultra high penetration bullets impart less shock then a rapid/wide expanding bullet. There is no doubt that the TSX gives the smaller calibers disproportionate killing power on medium game due to their deep penetration but I am used to getting a pattern of fragmentation through the vitals that almost always result in very rapid kills. When they make a lead free bullet that kills thin skinned game like a Sierra Game King or Nosler Ballistic Tip that will be the ONLY hunting bullet I load. ''
Maximum energy transfer with a bullet that will relliably open up & a well placed shot is everything, just blowing holes through animals is, to me, not hunting.
Here in N.Z. we have no season for deer & in most places, no calibre restriction.
I have shot well over 90 deer with a .222 using 50gr Sako Hammerhead bullets. ( all red deer)
You can hunt 365 days a year & we have 7 species to choose from, Roe, Fallow, Red, Whitetail, Samba , Rusa & Sika. Body weights from 45 - 300lbs
Bigger or tuffer animals, such as Wapiti or Hymalayan Thar, as well as deer at longer distances require 6.5x55 , .270 or 30-06, naturally.

 

[Revoltella]

When they make a lead free bullet that kills thin skinned game like a Sierra Game King or Nosler Ballistic Tip that will be the ONLY hunting bullet I load. ''

Nosler E-Tip?

 

[AllenJ]

Maximum energy transfer with a bullet that will relliably open up & a well placed shot is everything,

I understand the "maximum energy transfer" school of thought and it has merit but it has been my experience that I don't know when, where, or how an animal is going to appear or at what angle it may present itself for a shot. When I'm using Berger bullets that shot well be a broadside double lung, and nothing else. When I'm using Barnes bullets I'll take quartering angle shots because I know the bullet well penetrate into the vitals.

just blowing holes through animals is, to me, not hunting.

Nor is it to me. Any yahoo can shoot an animal but providing a quick clean kill, and making sure that the animal does not suffer anymore than necessary is a big part of what hunting is to me.

 

[Kachok]

The E-Tip does not create the kind of wound path that a partially fragmenting lead core bullet can, those fragments widen the wound tract beyond what the main body of the bullet ever could, that is not to say that a bonded or mono metal bullet cannot make for quick kills, but they would sure have to hit much faster to make the kind of shock a SGK or Ballistic Tip can. Maybe that is why you see TSXs in such unusually light weights so people can push them that fast.

 

[jimbob86]

....it has been my experience that I don't know when, where, or how an animal is going to appear or at what angle it may present itself for a shot.

No, you can't know these things with a high degree of certainty..... but if you don't have a pretty good idea, then you have not scouted your hunting spot very well.

My best spot (a small group of trees in an old oxbow on a dry creek, where 5 trails come through ) has a lot to do with why I chose the bullet I did- many of the shots are at bucks walking nearly right at me, at short range- they come over a hill @75 yards or up out of the creek bed @ 25 yards ...... shooting them with one of these bonded or all copper/GMX bullets would make a mess of things ..... there are wide open fields on 3 sides of these trees, offering shots as far as I am comfortable shooting, as well ...... there's plenty of time to wait for a broadside shot out there ... when the animal is 25 yards away and on a mission to find that hot doe he thought he smelled, not so much..... So these spendy "controlled expansion" bullets are right out, for my application.

Light for caliber conventional cup and core bullets at Ludicrous Speed and short range can fail to penetrate : 20 years ago, I had one of the old aluminum pointed Winchester Silvertips disintegrate on contact- wound was about 3"x3"x3" on the side of the deer- deer died and was recovered, but I think he died of surprise- he still had a good lung, heart was intact, there was not a huge blood trail, and ran well over 100 yards .... had he been facing me, and the bullet had hit his sternum instead of a rib? I think of that deer when I hear folks advocating for 110gr in a .270 or 85gr in .243 pushed as fast as they can be made to go ..... my bullet was the standard weight and velocity for the .270WIN.

I went to 150 grain SGK's after that, and have found that they will come apart inside the chest cavity on deer at short range, yet hold together and exit on longer broadside shots .... shoots flat, and reasonably accurate out of my gun...... perfect.

Any reason to shoot a deer with anything bigger than a .243?

Umm.... 'cause they won't stand still and let me cut their throat?

I cant see why the 243 isnt the better choice for a scoped deer rifle for shots under 300 yards.

There have been years that if I did not take the shot that presented itself (well past 300 yards)......the freezer would have not had much venison in it ..... some years I only get 2 days to hunt, and sometimes I have small kids in tow (and so every deer in the section knows exactly where we are- maybe they think that if they are are further than 400 yards away, they are safe- there are a couple that have been dead wrong about that.

The OP did mention

Guy I know wants to buy his son a new rifle for whitetail hunting and asked me what caliber to get.

and

Keeping in mind, most hunters dont shoot as much as we do.

and

normal shooting scenarios.

If the kid in question does not shoot much, or more importantly, does not intend to shoot much ...... he'll not have any business shooting past 300 anyhow.

If he intends to get into shooting and hunting ..... maybe something bigger, stoked with reduced recoil loads for now might be the way to go.

I'd not have the confidence to try a 450 yard shot with a .243 .....without extensive load developement and testing ..... which would cost more than the gun, I think.

 

[jimbob86]

Could it also be that ....

Maybe that is why you see TSXs in such unusually light weights so people can push them that fast.

...... part of that is that lead is denser than copper ..... bullets of the same size need to be drivern faster to have equal energy.

...... part of that could also be that solid copper bullets have a higher coefficient of starting and sliding friction than the guilding metal of standard bullet jackets (hence rings on the Triple Shock, to reduce surface area) .... harder to get started and keep going- raising pressures. Less weight= less pressure.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

By far, the biggest reason that monolithic bullets are lighter is because they would not stabilize if they were as heavy as a lead core bullet. They'd have to be MUCH longer than a lead-core and few rifles would have the twist rate to stabilize them. As an example, the .243 85gr Barnes TTSX is the same length as an average 105gr lead core bullet. Most .243s will just about stabilize the 105gr but not much of anything heavier/longer. Being lighter makes the bullet LESS stable for it's length so the TTSX is slightly harder to stabilize than a comparable lead-core bullet of the same length.

On the matter of what direction the deer comes from, in all my years of hunting I can count on one hand the number of spots I've hunted that have better than a 50% chance of deer coming from one direction, even if I call "one direction" to be a 180dg side.

I laugh when I hear such things and wonder where guys hunt that such a thing happens.

Wind is the same, and related... "hunt the wind!", I hear. Ok, where do you hunt that the wind will blow for hours at a time from one direction? I'm lucky if I can get a couple hours of wind from "one direction" if I, again, call "one direction" 180dg.

Add those two together, random deer movement and wind that might be SE when I get to the woods, SW an hour later and NW an hour later and dead S by sunset, "hunting the wind" and keeping my eyes peeled on that one trail are both pretty silly.

 

[jimbob86]

Wind is the same, and related... "hunt the wind!", I hear. Ok, where do you hunt that the wind will blow for hours at a time from one direction? I'm lucky if I can get a couple hours of wind from "one direction" if I, again, call "one direction" 180dg.

I imagine upstate NY is as different, weather/climate wise, from SW Nebraska as my little 'burg is from Brooklyn.

It is the Great Plains, and the weather, topography, the people, everything ..... are on a whole different scale from the North East ..... Sometimes the wind blows from the same direction for days ..... a quick look at the noaa site tells me......

http://w1.weather.gov/data/obhistory/KPMV.html

that the wind in our little hamlet has been blowing fron either the W or NW for over 24 hours .....

It is a big and varied Country .... just because you have not seen a thing in your neighborhood does not mean it just is not so.

Being lighter makes the bullet LESS stable for it's length so the TTSX is slightly harder to stabilize than a comparable lead-core bullet of the same length.

It is the rate of spin that imparts stability, and I would think that there'd be two ways to increase rpm:

1. increase the twist rate

2. Increase the speed of the bullet through the barrel.

I know that increasing the velocity of very lightly constructed varmit bullets can produce more rotational force than the bullet can withstand (Bullts go "poof"- fly apart in flight..... reducing the speed might give a spin that won't keep it point forward.....

On the matter of what direction the deer comes from, in all my years of hunting I can count on one hand the number of spots I've hunted that have better than a 50% chance of deer coming from one direction, even if I call "one direction" to be a 180dg side.

Again, every area is different.

Where I hunt, the does are pretty predictable........ the bucks can be counted on to follow the does when the rut is on (which neatly coincides with the opening of firearm deer season). The doe trails in some places resemble cow paths, completely wearing the grass down to bare ground .... I can't count on them coming from any one direction, but more often than not, they are on these trails ......

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

just because you have not seen a thing in your neighborhood does not mean it just is not so.

Again, every area is different.

Where I hunt, the does are pretty predictable...

Actually, that's my point exactly. I don't doubt that such places exist, the problem I have is when it's stated as fact, like you're a fool if you're not "hunting the wind". or have your eyes peeled on one trail. Every place is not like mine, nor is every place one where the winds blow for days, or even hours, from one direction.

It is the rate of spin that imparts stability, and I would think that there'd be two ways to increase rpm:

1. increase the twist rate

2. Increase the speed of the bullet through the barrel.

I know that increasing the velocity of very lightly constructed varmit bullets can produce more rotational force than the bullet can withstand (Bullts go "poof"- fly apart in flight..... reducing the speed might give a spin that won't keep it point forward.....

True, but the various influences are not equal. You can use any of the various calculators available online to change one variable at a time and see how it effects stability. I presume that we're talking about a single gun firing these bullets so changing the twist rate really doesn't apply.

Increasing speed is great but really makes little difference. A bullet that's unstable at a starting load is almost never going to be stable at max load.

In any case, my point was to address why monolithic bullets are lighter.

 

[jimbob86]

My comments were in regard to further explaing why the solid bullets (TSX in particular) were generally available only in lighter weights ...... Thus far, we have:

They can't be long (and thus heavy) because:

they won't stabilize with available twists if they are.

they are harder to get going, so lighter bullets are favored.

they are harder, so more speed is required to initate expansion.

Question:

What is the highest BC for a solid hunting bullet available for the .243WIN?

 

[reynolds357]

I have personally had excellent success with the .243. I have never lost a deer with the .243 Win. I guess I have killed 10 or 12 with it over the years. I rarely deer hunt with it. On the other hand, my wife has shot three deer with it that we never found, and has never shot one with it that we did find. I have some top of the line tracking dogs. (I know shot placement, not the cartridge, is the problem) One day we were going hunting, she had her .243 and I had my .264 win mag. I told her, take this and I will take the .243. She shot a good buck with the Win Mag. I tracked it less than 100 yards and found it. She hit nothing vital. Shot was slightly under the lungs and clipped the guts. Hydrostatic shock collapsed the lungs of the deer. Had she been shooting the .243, we would have never found that deer. From then on, she has taken one of my .264 Win mags as her rifle. She has killed a pile of deer, and most have been hit in a less than ideal place.
(I know, learn to shoot.) She is an adult. I can not force her to go practice, neither can I forbid her from hunting until she learns how to shoot better. If it was one of my kids, yeah. Wife, no.

 

[reynolds357]

To anyone that thinks a Barnes X does not deliver a devesdating wound channel, all I can say is you need to shoot a few big animals with them.

 

[AllenJ]

Jimbob, I just have to add something to this statement:

but if you don't have a pretty good idea, then you have not scouted your hunting spot very well.

...or your hunting spot is the Lassen National Forest, that is public land!

Back when I bow hunted patterning the deer was pretty easy. Get between their bedding area and either their feed or water and I had a pretty good idea which direction they'd be coming from then. It all changes for rifle season. It's almost like magic that right after the first shots sound, the bucks stop following their normal routine and disappear like morning mist. Add that to the fact that our season is in mid September, and always starts with a full moon. Like I said, I don't have any idea where they're coming from because I'm hoping someone has jumped one up and it's going to come by me

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I tracked it less than 100 yards and found it. She hit nothing vital. Shot was slightly under the lungs and clipped the guts. Hydrostatic shock collapsed the lungs of the deer. Had she been shooting the .243, we would have never found that deer.

Maybe, but don't be so sure.

I didn't almost exactly that on a good sized doe last year, except I didn't hit any guts. I hit too low and too far forward on a slightly angling toward shot with a TTSX from a .243AI. That deer only made it about 150, 175 yards. Still alive but not going any farther.

What is the highest BC for a solid hunting bullet available for the .243WIN?

Hornady GMX 80gr is 0.300
Barnes TTSX 80gr is 0.331
Barnes 85gr TSX 0.333
Cutting Edge 100gr 0.580 (good luck stabilizing it 1:7 twist required) Plus $50/50

 

[WIN1886]

No , there isn't really......I got two bucks with my .243 requiring one shot each and both fell within a few yards of being hit ! However , being that I like to use all my rifles or revolvers for hunting...I switch off the .243 , new 30-30, 45-70's , .44 magnum , 357 magnum , and who knows what will be next ! The only buck that I've had to track a long ways was hit by my ole 30-06 and yes , it was a bad hit from being a little deflected by brush ( I figure ) !

 

[JD0x0]

Hornady GMX 80gr is 0.300
Barnes TTSX 80gr is 0.331
Barnes 85gr TSX 0.333
Cutting Edge 100gr 0.580 (good luck stabilizing it 1:7 twist required) Plus $50/50

Some honorable mentions
Berger 105grain match hybrid target .547 (1:8)
Berger 108 grain match BT target .511 (1:8)
Berger 115 grain Match VLD target .545 (1:7)
Berger match grade VLD hunting .532 (1:8)

 

[Been there]

Hornady 87gr HPBT .411