Any reason to use anything bigger than a 243 for deer?

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Brian in terminal ballistics there is no such thing as a free lunch, ultra high penetration bullets impart less shock then a rapid/wide expanding bullet. There is no doubt that the TSX gives the smaller calibers disproportionate killing power on medium game due to their deep penetration but I am used to getting a pattern of fragmentation through the vitals that almost always result in very rapid kills. When they make a lead free bullet that kills thin skinned game like a Sierra Game King or Nosler Ballistic Tip that will be the ONLY hunting bullet I load.
 
In Montana, it is easy to think 300 and have it be 450 when the ground is so flat.
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Unless you are shooting a laser, mis-judging 450 for 300 will put your bullet in the dirt.

I shoot a .270 WIN, with pretty efficient bullet loaded fairly hot ...... which will still drop 18 inches from it's 300 yard zero at 450 .......... put that dead on him like you would thinking it's 300, and you are under him by a foot.....

..... Rangefinders are wonderfull things in open country.
 
If penetration was the only function of terminal performance we would all be hunting with DU armor piercing bullets, but in fact the most popular deer hunting bullets are all well known for their ability to impart a high level of energy transfer through deer sized game.
The lack of fragmentation and minimal shock created by the TSX is good for another thing though, meat damage is minimal and exit wounds while small seem to be rather free bleeding in my limited experience.
I am no expert on the 243 but if I were to load one up for deer right now I would load up some Sierra or Nosler bullets just like I do for my 6.5mm, still have enough penetration to exit at any reasonable angle and deal a hefty blow going through. Several of friends who load for 243 swear by the 85gr SGK HP.
 
While I am a huge fan of the 243 Winchester in 95 & 105 grain bullets, I am far from an good hunter. I am an excellent shot, but hunting is not the same thing, Often shots taken at bad to poor angles or in questionable light (dawn or dusk). Often trees or branches get in the way and can not be seen through a scope. Heart racing, blood pressure up, or hands shaking will hinder the shot.

So to make a short story long (LOL), it is a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington for heavy woods and my Savage 270 for long range shots on a deer hunt.

I need all the help I can get. So going out with more gun than I will need, just gives me the confidence I will need.

Jim
 
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''Deer are lost because hunters make bad shots. Powerful guns don't make bad shots into good ones. Bad shots are bad shots. A .338Lapua through the guts is going to mean hours for the deer to die and an extremely difficult tracking job. A .243 through the guts will be the same. A .243 through both lungs will kill that animal just as dead, just as fast, as a .338Lapua through both lungs.''
Agreed, shot placement is everything. Next comes bullet selection & here again, if you are drilling pensil sized holes through an animal, you are looking at having to follow a blood trail , exit wounds are something I try to avoid & find great satisfaction in seeing a deer crumble where it stands.
 
"243 is an excellent cartridge for whitetail deer. In reality it replaced the .257 Roberts, which is just as adequate"
There just isn't enough difference to make a case on the effectiveness of these two rounds. Actually the 243 was boosted considerably by the use of "short action" on 243 rifles. I've basically stopped using the 243 for deer and for killing "meat deer", switched to the 257 Roberts with what I consider to be tangible improvements in performance with "common, cup and core bullets".
There are a lot of hunters who are fanatical in following a certain cartridge even though it may not be an optimum choice-take the 30-30 for example. The 30-30 has killed a tremendous amount of game but by most standards, it's very limited in range and energy. So to is the 243, if you stick to the accepted minimum energy criteria.
I shot a 243 as my only rifle for years until I decided there were better coyote rounds and found the 243 a little short for my style of deer hunting.
 
It's hard for me to believe that anybody who'd shot at deer with a T/TSX in any caliber would claim minimal shock and small exit wounds.

Exits from TTSX in .243 and 7mm-08 have consistently been right about the same size as my thumb, which is about 3/4".

I shot a small buck with my Encore handgun using a 110gr TTSX in 7-08. The 15" barrel produces a relatively paltry 2850fps with the 110gr. The deer fell sideways where it stood and never got it's feet back on the ground before it died. I always inspect the heart and lungs. I hit the upper center of the right lung and the lower center of the left. Both lungs were destroyed. The bullet was not within (at least) 6" of the heart but the heart was ruptured.

That's not minimal shock in my opinion.

Other shots with the TTSX in .243 have been similar. Sometimes deer run 100 yards or more. Sometimes they're DRT. same as any other bullet or cartridge I've ever seen.
 
Other shots with the TTSX in .243 have been similar. Sometimes deer run 100 yards or more. Sometimes they're DRT. same as any other bullet or cartridge I've ever seen.
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True- as I've said before, every animal is different.

I've killed deer with the .243 ...... come to think of it, 3/4 of them dropped at the shot, including the big buck I shot from 300 yards away, and he hit the ground so hard his offside leg broke .....

....that does not mean the next deer shot with that caliber will do the same.

To the OP's question: Is there any reason to use anything bigger than a .243WIN on deer?

Depends mostly upon the hunter and upon the hunting situation, I think.

Me, I want to be able to shoot to 450, on the biggest deer I've ever seen in the area I hunt. I don't have the confidence in the .243 to do that, which is important.

Could the .243WIN do that? Yes. ....but I want my .270WIN with the load I've practiced with for years and years.
 
BOY... this discussion got heated in a hurry...

My wife's cousin shot a nice large buck at about 25 yards with a 12 gauge slug... hit a rib bone going in, blew out both lungs, & shot a soft ball sized hole going out the opposite side... blood was spattered everywhere... looked like a massacre scene in the ( used to be ) white snow... the buck charged up a steep bluff for over a 1/4 mile, before it piled up...

just goes to show, that anyone that thinks deer always DRT, short of a spinal cord shot... I guess I say... they just haven't run into one, that didn't know it was dead after it got shot...

like butts... everyone has an opinion... & I've already stated mine ;)
 
Brian mind you my SGKs give me a fist sized exit wound on these small southern whitetail so a thumb sized wound is small to me, though it does put them down and you don't have to pass steep shoulder shots. Hard bullets do the trick on deer of that there is no doubt but I still think that a fast expander can make for a quicker kill on average especially if you mainly take rear lung and neck shots. Mono metal bullets have opened new doors for the small calibers but rest assured that they were reliably putting down deer LONG before the copper bullet was dreamed up, I know I was there :)
 
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just goes to show, that anyone that thinks deer always DRT, short of a spinal cord shot... I guess I say... they just haven't run into one, that didn't know it was dead after it got shot...
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Spine shots are often not "Dead Right There": I've seen a few shot in the spine that though they went down right there, did not die .....

.....one of them laid there motionless on the side of the draw where he fell ....... then when my Grandpa walked up to him with a knife to cut his throat and grabbed hold of his antler, he rose up on on his forelegs and tossed his head, throwing G-pa arse over tea kettle down the hill ......

..... I shot one myself in the midst of the worst blizzard to hit southwest Nebraska in recent memory (November 2000)..... paralyzed from the mid chest down, it covered 50 yards dragging it's back end in the time it took me to run 150 ..... then turned on me to fight for it's life ...... it's darn hard to shoot a deer in the neck, with a scoped bolt action rifle, from 10 feet away, in a blizzard, when he won't hold still ......just one more reason to carry a sidearm.
 
Allen the high tech TSX, GMX, E-Tip....etc do NOT increase the wounding width of the 243 at all in fact they are widely regarded as having noticeably narrower wounds, their principal advantage is increased penetration and nothing else so a fancy mono metal or bonded bullet still does not equal the wounding of a larger caliber despite what the advertisements tell you, I have used TTSXs before while they work old school cup and core bullets are faster killing on thin skinned game.
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I don't believe advertisements, they are created by educated people to sell me something so they can keep their jobs. I do however believe what I see and the animals I've shot and seen shot with Barnes X, TSX, TTSX and LRX bullets have anything but a narrow wound channel. Entry and exit holes are typically bigger than those I've shot or seen shot with cup and core bullets, and the damage inside the animal is second to nothing else I've used or seen used so far.
 
Kachok said:
Brian mind you my SGKs give me a fist sized exit wound on these small southern whitetail so a thumb sized wound is small to me, though it does put them down and you don't have to pass steep shoulder shots. Hard bullets do the trick on deer of that there is no doubt but I still think that a fast expander can make for a quicker kill on average especially if you mainly take rear lung and neck shots. Mono metal bullets have opened new doors for the small calibers but rest assured that they were reliably putting down deer LONG before the copper bullet was dreamed up, I know I was there :)
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Yes... well... Coyote sized deer are different. ;)

According to this article from the state of Texas, the average field dressed 4 year old buck is about the same weight as an average 2-3 year old NY doe.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0828.pdf

Frankly, shooting your deer I'd probably use a 55gr Nosler LF pushed as close to 4,000fps as I could get. It'd still be in a .243 though (or AI in my case). I CAN get 4,000 too... almost 4,100.
 
Brian mind you my SGKs give me a fist sized exit wound on these small southern whitetail so a thumb sized wound is small to me, though it does put them down and you don't have to pass steep shoulder shots. Hard bullets do the trick on deer of that there is no doubt but I still think that a fast expander can make for a quicker kill on average especially if you mainly take rear lung and neck shots. Mono metal bullets have opened new doors for the small calibers but rest assured that they were reliably putting down deer LONG before the copper bullet was dreamed up, I know I was there
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Growing up in poverty I have always viewed deer as meat first and to hell with that sport stuff. Over the years, I have learned where to shoot a deer to produce a quick but very important to me, as little meat damage as possible. Thus, my enchantment with behind the shoulder, through the ribs. Evidently, there are those who care little how much damage is done to the meat, they just want the carcass no matter what the condition.
If someone gave you a prime steer, and told you had to shoot it with your hunting rifle, but could not shoot it in the head, where would you shoot it? A "steep shoulder shot", a "rear lung and neck shot"? Or would you use patience and wait until the steer presented the behind the shoulder and through the ribs, shot. As I mentioned, I grew up in poverty, my parents lived through the depression, and one of the values instilled in me was that we never, ever wasted food. Evidently, there are fewer of us left that think like that.
If a person exercises patience and skill, the .243 is a good deer killer.
 
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I remember when the .243 came on the scene (early 60's?) & for publicity a gun writer took it to Africa & shot everything walkin' around except for the big-5 (probably not legal). Of course, everything was described as DRT. Amazing since the .244 had been around a while & had no such praise or devotees.

The .243 has no doubt proved it self as an excellent deer rifle & the biggest way to start an argument is to say otherwise. I have shot a few deer with one & seen several shot with .243 (& 6mm Rem) & all seem to get real dead & pretty quickly!

If he was still around, I wonder what Elmer Keith would say. The .243 kinda puts his theories out the window. :)

...bug
 
Old Elmer never doubted that small caliber could kill medium game, but he liked being able to harvest his game from any angle, he was not a fan of passing up on a shot due to limited penetration, so he had a reason for preferring his large calibers, or that is how I understood it anyway, his ranting against the 270 was part of his feud with Jack O'Connor.
 
According to this article from the state of Texas, the average field dressed 4 year old buck is about the same weight as an average 2-3 year old NY doe.
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Texas Hill Country Deer = "Hollywood Deer": Giant racks and a tiny body that could never occur in Nature. :D

A 60lb. 1 1/2 y.o. field dressed buck? Little feller must have something wrong with him ......

Frankly, shooting your deer I'd probably use a 55gr Nosler LF pushed as close to 4,000fps as I could get. It'd still be in a .243 though (or AI in my case). I CAN get 4,000 too... almost 4,100.
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You trying to turn them inside out, Peetz?

Growing up in poverty I have always viewed deer as meat first and to hell with that sport stuff. Over the years, I have learned where to shoot a deer to produce a quick but very important to me, as little meat damage as possible. Thus, my enchantment with behind the shoulder, through the ribs.
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+1, When possible .... which is not always.

Evidently, there are those who care little how much damage is done to the meat, they just want the carcass no matter what the condition.
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These folks probably don't cut their own meat either....... just bring it to the commercial processor .....they dont have to see the wreckage that used to be the front end of the loin, now all full of bone fragments and blood ....
 
you get into shot gun zones around here, & you hear BOOM BOOM, BOOM, BOOM BOOM... seen deer around here that have had 3-4 poorly placed slugs in them... you put a slug through both back quarters & one though the front quarters, & one through the loin, doesn't leave much but trimmings after :mad: we usually do the cutting up, & send trim to a local processor that will do small enough batches, that they'll only use our meat in our batches of Sausage, Sticks & Bologna... steaks & roasts don't leave our place before they hit the freezer...

in fact ( & I don't know how this could even happen ) a buddy of mine is a Dept of Ag inspector, that does contract USDA inspections at local lockers... there was a deer in one the other day, when he was inspecting, that had been shot 5 times with an arrow :eek::confused:

I actually wonder if that one was poached & they stuck arrows in to cover up bullet holes ??? I have no idea how you could shoot the same deer 5 times with arrows ???
 
I don't know if the two dozen or so bucks I tagged via my .243 died instantly or not. What I do know is that they immediately fell down and didn't go anywhere at all.

But I'm picky about my shots. Neck, or cross-body heart/lung. No angling shots. They generally were between 75 and 150 yards away. Gimme shots.

Texas deer vary in size, quite a bit. I've seen decent sized racks on bucks that wouldn't dress out much over 60 to 70 pounds. (Way too high a population in the CenTex hill country for the carrying capacity of the land.) I've also seen a few that dressed out near 200. Most of mine dressed out in the 90- to 120-pound range.
 
Talking about small deer, while there are some small ones in Texas (lived there for years) the smallest deer I have ever seen where in Alabama. Early this year I almost hit a deer that jumped in front of me near Robertsdale, tiny thing was so small I could not see it's back over my hood, that would be funny enough in my truck but I was driving my Mazda 3! No kidding it had to be under 30" tall at the shoulder and yes I am sure it was not a spotted fawn I got a REAL close look at it. Now let me make this real clear though, there are huge deer in Texas too, when I lived out in Fort Stockton the local mulies were huge, and even seen one place in the hill country where then whitetail were impressive.
 
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