Animal Cruelty?

People have no rights they do not imbue upon themselves. People that live in this country seem t forget that.
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That is the new progressive thinking that is ruining our country. When our founders wrote our constitution, they deliberately decided to add that we are "endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights". It doesn't matter if anyone is religious or not, the brilliance of this is that if God gave us our rights, only God can take them away. If our rights come from people, then people can take our rights away. This whole new philosophy is about giving people (government) the power to take away our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
 
wyobohunter, IMO, thats sensible. Cruelty would be not putting that animal out of its misery. Again, IMO, sometimes people get so attached to their pets they fail to foresee the quality of life the pet will have after repairs are made by a vet on an injury/illness sustained by the animal. Its almost a since of thinking with your heart instead of your head which usually translates into human selfishness. A friend of mine has a 16yr. old lab thats does nothing but lay and whine due to its arthritis. Also dogs all but blind. Friend has to carry dog outside to do its business and more often than not, friend has to hand feed dog cause dog hurts to bad to get up and make it to its bowl. He can`t bring himself to take dog to vet and do the responsible thing and has even told me it needs to be done. I've offered to take dog to vet but to no avail. To me thats cruel.
 
Art Eatman...

... with regard to the .22 to the head being an efficient, instant killer, the Bobby Kennedy assassination is a really bad example.

After being shot in the head, and after Sirhan Sirhan was subdued by Rafer Johnson and Rosey Grier, among others, Kennedy was still not only alive but conscious. He asked, "Is everybody safe, OK?" He was conscious for several minutes thereafter.

This is not a good argument for the quick, humane effect of a .22.

As far as veterinary euthanasia goes, we've learned through unpleasant experience that a bit of planning goes a long way. With a little prior coordination, the vet now prepares a painkiller and soporific mix of drugs. The initial shot calms and quiets the dog, and there's no pain reaction whatever to the lethal injection.

All things being equal, the only way my pets would be put down by a firearm would be if there were an accident or attack involving massive, unsurvivable trauma in a remote location.
 
Any thread involving ethics should be closed IMO. Nothing to gain.
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I have to disagree with you on this one. So long as their are no personal attacks and the dialogue remains on topic, it is not only interesting (at least to those of us who have posted), but also tries to get someone else's point of view into question.

I wonder if ethics should be taught in schools, but then the problem is, whose ethics do you teach.

What better place to discuss ethics about firearms and hunting than a forum dealing with this topic?

I have stated my feelings on the ethic of hunting and I look forward to hearing everyone else's. I think some of them are misplaced or misunderstood, but I respect their right to voice the opinion. Some of the folks here I would love to hunt with, others I would shoot with, but not hunt.

It helps us explain and understand things like "I am a farmer, a hunter and a conservationist." A lot of people think a conservationist should not hunt. I feel a true conservationist needs to hunt, or allow hunting, because there are a great many stories of dear herds starving because of overpopulation. I remember as a kid they did something about hunting in Mass., basically stopping it, and the next year the power companies where having a hard time because the squirrel population had gotten out of control and were shorting out transformers and things.

I would love to see a mountain lion or a wolf. But I know what a bobcat and coyotes do to my livestock. Again, for me it comes down to finances. I can not afford to let wild animals eat my livestock, but I can afford to plant grasses and bushes that encourage quail to nest along the fields. (I do not hunt quail.)

I could cut the dead trees down on the property and sell the fire wood, or I can leave them there and let the wild birds and bats nest in them when they begin to rot.

I put up bird houses and bat houses around my place and give them to friends. We all have our little way of helping the wildlife and be conservationist.

But unlike some people I will never believe it is OK to burn down a housing development to stop people from moving in to the country (Their version of it). I do not believe any animal has more rights than a person. I also believe that a person who owns animals or hunts animals have certain responsibilities to the animals they keep or hunt.

So again, so long as we keep the name calling to something reasonable and the discussion intelligent, I feel I at least benefit from it.
 
Its almost a since of thinking with your heart instead of your head which usually translates into human selfishness.
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Does it not bother people that pets in this country experience a better quality of life, better medical treatment, better nutrition, and more legal rights than millions of human beings in third world countries? To me that's cruelty.
 
As far as veterinary euthanasia goes, we've learned through unpleasant experience that a bit of planning goes a long way. With a little prior coordination, the vet now prepares a painkiller and soporific mix of drugs. The initial shot calms and quiets the dog, and there's no pain reaction whatever to the lethal injection.
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This is the way I usually recommend to have it done also. It makes a huge difference, better for the animal, better for the owner, better for the vet.

Does it not bother people that pets in this country experience a better quality of life, better medical treatment, better nutrition, and more legal rights than millions of human beings in third world countries? To me that's cruelty.
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I bet your car, guns, house, or any other item you may own gets better care than most people in these same third world countries. Does that also constitute cruelty to you? Also, the reason we are so advanced in our medical care has a lot to do with veterinary medicine. Had any rabies, black plague, intestinal parasites, or anything like that lately? No? Then thank a vet. Have you had to pay $50 a pound for ground beef lately? No? Then thank a vet. We do a lot more to help you than you probably realize. And it's up to the owner of the animal to decide how to spend their money. If you think it's ridiculous that someone will spend $2000 to save an animal's life rather than donate it to a charity to help a person in a third world country, then make the sacrifice the next time your car needs a new transmission, or you want a new gun. Then, I will give creedence to your argument. Until then, it is meaningless and only has to do with how people elect to spend their money.
 
the only way my pets would be put down by a firearm would be if there were an accident or attack involving massive, unsurvivable trauma in a remote location
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I was living in Ninilchik at the time so, it was over an hour to any vet. Also, I think a shotgun slug to the brain is likely just as painless as anything a vet can administer, but a whole lot cheaper.
 
I bet your car, guns, house, or any other item you may own gets better care than most people in these same third world countries. Does that also constitute cruelty to you? Also, the reason we are so advanced in our medical care has a lot to do with veterinary medicine. Had any rabies, black plague, intestinal parasites, or anything like that lately? No? Then thank a vet. Have you had to pay $50 a pound for ground beef lately? No? Then thank a vet. We do a lot more to help you than you probably realize. And it's up to the owner of the animal to decide how to spend their money. If you think it's ridiculous that someone will spend $2000 to save an animal's life rather than donate it to a charity to help a person in a third world country, then make the sacrifice the next time your car needs a new transmission, or you want a new gun. Then, I will give creedence to your argument. Until then, it is meaningless and only has to do with how people elect to spend their money
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I never said I was not guilty of this, only pointing out the obvious, sad, truth.
 
Watching perceptions is fun, whether animal cruelty or lifestyle needs.

PETA and HSUS go berzerkoid against our system which spends billions of dollars per year on animal care and vet bills, etc. Why don't they go to northeast Asia? After all, the Korean word for "dog" is "supper". (I'll never forget my startlement, back in 1954, seeing a Korean man carrying a smallish dog. The four paws were tied together like a suitcase handle, making it an easy tote.)

Mleake, okay, but I've read for years that the brain doesn't feel pain. Regardless, I wouldn't drive the 90 miles from my house to the nearest vet.
 
If you shoot an animal in the head the muscle spasms can go on for a while. Matter of fact a hog can almost break your leg if you start messing with him too soon. Personally, I don't want to look at it on a pet whether my mind says they can't feel it or not.
 
Personally, I don't want to look at it on a pet whether my mind says they can't feel it or not.
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I do not want to look on at the demise of any animal especially a pet or hunting dog. But I do feel the responsibility is mine and mine alone to "take care of business" for the purpose of gathering meat or easing the suffering of a pet.
Brent
 
I do not want to look on at the demise of any animal especially a pet or hunting dog. But I do feel the responsibility is mine and mine alone to "take care of business" for the purpose of gathering meat or easing the suffering of a pet.
Brent
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I know. But, if it doesn't need to be done right that second the vet is only two miles away and I had just as soon give him sixty bucks. That's whay my wife did with the $7000 cat or $7060 cat, I suppose.:)
 
I never said I was not guilty of this, only pointing out the obvious, sad truth.
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To bring up the demise of third world countries or to apologize for how the U.S. spends its money,right or wrong, is not only thread veer, its an insult. The trillions of dollars and blood spent in third world countries by the U.S. has been astronomical. I`ll stop for now as I just watched 'We Were Soldiers' and am a bit sideways. Don`t want to offend anyone!
 
Does it not bother people that pets in this country experience a better quality of life, better medical treatment, better nutrition, and more legal rights than millions of human beings in third world countries? To me that's cruelty.
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This sums up my attitude on things.Don't get me wrong,I have no problem with someone helping animals,but what I do have is a problem with is when someone who won't give to human charities,but will give to animal ones.If someone gives to an animal charity and also gives to human charities,that's fine,but people are first.
 
I still maintain that it's just about how people spend their money. Would you rather someone spend $5000 gambling in Vegas before they donate it to the animal charities? If you buy a friend or family member a gift and spend $500 on it and don't donate an equal amount to a charity, then you are as much at fault as the people who donate to animal charities before human charities.
 
I have known hunters who "hunt" cruelly. There are other psychological issues going on with these people - issues of control, blood lust, anger. They also project that cruelty oftentimes to their pets, even children. I refuse to hunt with people like that.
 
"Does it not bother people that pets in this country experience a better quality of life, better medical treatment, better nutrition, and more legal rights than millions of human beings in third world countries? To me that's cruelty."

"This sums up my attitude on things.Don't get me wrong,I have no problem with someone helping animals,but what I do have is a problem with is when someone who won't give to human charities,but will give to animal ones.If someone gives to an animal charity and also gives to human charities,that's fine,but people are first."

Tolerance guys, tolerance; not everyone shares the same values for different things such as people in foreign lands or pets or feral cats & dogs. Why should everyone have to share the same values for such things? This is my personal problem with certain religions or more precisely with the more conservative parts of some religions (not politically "conservative", more like "less tolerant of differing opinions"); people have the right (whoever/whatever gave it) to their own opinions and beliefs. I personally don't much care about the starving children in Africa, though hunger in this country matters to me greatly. I personally don't feel the need to support Bible ministry to other countries, as i am not a Christian myself (though i do appreciate that the Bible provides very good guidelines for living).

Should i have to support the foreign ministry of Muslim groups even though i am not a Muslim? I don't think so; i think i should support whatever causes I deem needy or appropriate. To do otherwise is basically a lie in my opinion. If a group went door-to-door demanding that all decent people pitch in to help build a levee system in Death Valley to save its inhabitants from the risk of astronomically unlikely flooding, would i be wrong to say "no thanks"? Free will FTW.
 
I've never subscribed to the notion that animals have rights, but I may have to change my opinion after the last election. I'm pretty sure there were some animals that voted for Obama with ACORN's help.
 
I've save many animal's lives. I hunt, but animal cruelty just gets under my skin. My dad raised walker hounds for hunting deer, and I can't hunt with dogs to this day. After hunting season, you can drive out and find starving, lost, abandoned dogs that either couldn't be found or were just left cause they weren't useful anymore. I have a retarded cat that was recued, too:o. I was raised to eat what I hunt (for the most part).
 
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