Animal Cruelty?

People are animals...just a little smarter. Nothing more nothing less.
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I can agree 100% on the above... rare for me to agree with Ol' PBP...
But Animals other than humans are not people.

I also feel to a great degree that domesticated animals are the property of the owner and can be treated or used however the owner feels comfortable doing so...
Brent
 
I didn't take anything personal 2D. I was just trying to point out some of the blurring between animal cruelty and how far it can be pushed. I in fact feel differently when it comes to killing a wild animal and one that I have raised. That is the human side of me.

However I realize that people are different than animals.We have a conscious and I do not believe animals do. I believe we have a sole and animals do not. People and animals are mammals but we are not the same.

Everybody wants to define animal cruelty to their own point of view and the only problem is that some people want to extend that beyond just the senseless beating or torture of an animal.

People and hunters even start to split and fracture on this issue. One may not have a problem with killing a deer but does if they kill a Lion. I don't get this because I see no difference. They are both dead and in some culture I'm am sure both can be eaten. Another sees it as torture to have life lobster in a grocery store. If they were dead and frozen would there be a real big difference?

I can't pass judgment on how others think. Because I have a conscious it does come into play when you get to close to a farm animal like you would a pet. That is dangerous and I have warned my daughters not to treat them as pets. It is dangerous because it makes the killing of that animal more emotional.

But the plain truth is that animals have been harvested for food long as long as man has walked the earth. Others have been killed because they damage crops or prove to be dangerous to man. We are no different than the animal who will kill for the same things.

I will never pick on the sportsman for doing something he loves and I certainly will not look down on a grocery store of the fisherman who provides the live lobster to them. However I will do anything to prosecute a person if they treat any animal with cruelty. But that is the problem what do we define as cruelty?

I may define it as the senseless slaughter of an animal that involves some type of torture for no purpose. Another may define it as hunting for sport and not meat. Many more will define it as farmers raising their livestock.

The topic is complicated and widely divided which in the end makes me a mass murder in some peoples eyes. In any event I am a hunter and see nothing wrong with the killing of animals. I am a hunter and if you torture animals for pleasure then I'm against it. I am a hunter and I don't blur the issue of animal cruelty to include what most animal rights people include. I am a hunter and I support others who may hunt the larger game animal for trophy. I will note that is not what I like to do but I see nothing wrong with those that like to do it.
 
"I also feel to a great degree that domesticated animals are the property of the owner and can be treated or used however the owner feels comfortable doing so..." HD

I don't disagree about the domesticated animals being the property of the owner, and would agree with the second part except for the many examples of people lacking in the common sense needed to own/manage/care for their animals (animal hoarders, dog fighting, etc).

edit*
I am hesitant to point this out, because i don't want to insult the earlier poster. However, i can't help but notice that your statement is reportedly an accurate reflection of a commonly-held attitude toward slavery in the early 1800's (& many other times in human history). Not many people hold with that opinion any longer; i wonder if their opinion toward animals as property will change too?
No offense to the poster; i've seen many wonderful and helpful threads by HD & i doubt he considered the analogy.
 
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People are animals...just a little smarter. Nothing more nothing less.
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I couldn't disagree more. If you really believe that, then what is the difference between killing an animal and an idiot? My 15 month old son is not as smart as my lab, my mentally handicapped younger sister is probably not as smart as some chimps. But people are different, people have a fundamental right to live and to be free. Animals cannot and do not. We would live in a very scary world if people really believed what you said.
 
But people are different, people have a fundamental right to live and to be free. Animals cannot and do not.
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Only because they are advanced enough to force their dominion over dumber animals, or a religious belief.

If I have to save my dog and somebody I don't know from some catastrophe they had better hope I still have time after I get my dog out. I would expect the same from them.
 
I also feel to a great degree that domesticated animals are the property of the owner and can be treated or used however the owner feels comfortable doing so...
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I disagree completely. If I saw someone abusing an animal they own simply because the feel they have some right to do so I would very clearly and quickly pointing out the error of their ways.
Only because they are advanced enough to force their dominion over dumber animals, or a religious belief.
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Yup. Biologically speaking the only thing that sets us aside is a higher intellect that has allowed us to force our desires onto the other animals. It is a simple case of might makes right. People have no rights they do not imbue upon themselves. People that live in this country seem t forget that.
 
I pretty much agree with you. I hate to see any animal miss treated. Hunting is a whole other ball game. It is not done to be cruel. When a animal does happen to get wounded most of us fee real bad about it, and try very hard for clean kills etc. You sound like your a good sportperson, and I wish more were like that.
 
PBP, you're so far off base it's not even funny. We are not just animals. If we were "only" smart critters it wouldn't make a difference if we were cruel or not.
Yup. Biologically speaking the only thing that sets us aside is a higher intellect that has allowed us to force our desires onto the other animals. It is a simple case of might makes right. People have no rights they do not imbue upon themselves. People that live in this country seem t forget that.
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Doesn't a wolf just force itself on a caribou? Doesn't the fox do it to a rabbit? By your reasoning we are only doing the same thing that nature intended. Only for some BS reason we have decided that it's wrong to be mean about it. Heck, at least we don't start munching down before the critter is dead like every other animal on this earth.

I've never known you to be a troll but you're trolling. What the heck are you coming onto the Hunting forum and spewing this crap for anyway?

LK
 
PBP, you are one of the Premier folks to come to for handgun related topics, and I have. You knowledge of firearms is a huge additive to this forum. But you blurred the lines in your first post from agreeing with the OP about hating animal cruelty, to hunting bashing, and your opinion that animals should have more rights than humans.

I don't think any right minded person would agree that being overly cruel to an animal is OK. In any sense, but to bring up the other stuff is just asking for an off topic discussion that will never get anywhere. I went way off topic in my last post only in response, but that wasn't right. And I didn't mean to attack you like that.

But everyone can agree with you, the OP, and just about anyone that animal cruelty is wrong. But I don't feel that most "Animal Rights Activists" have the slightest inclination of how the natural order of things run in the Wild animal world...what-so-ever. Save the all puppies and little kitties but leave the wild outdoors to those who are willing to understand, do the research, and to fix the problem. If they're not willing to fix the problem, then they shouldn't have a say so in the solution.
 
I was raised in a mix of farming/ranching as well as city living. One of my chores as a youngun of sevenish-eight or thereabouts was catching the chicken for Sunday dinner. My grandmother showed me how to wring its neck. My grandfather wasn't a vet, but he showed me how to doctor screwworms in a calf's navel. About the same age range...

But nobody ever beat on a plow horse, and the dogs and cats got fed and petted.

I don't know how much a vet charges to euthanize an animal. I do know that a poor man's .22 bullet into the brain does in a dog as quickly as one did in Bobby Kennedy.

Hunting? I don't care if an animal is wild or domestic. If you're gonna kill it, do it quick and clean. That's why I worked pretty busily to create a package to enable me to bust Bambi in the white spot. My skill, my rifle's reliability, all that stuff. And why I'm picky about choosing my shots...

I've never seen many folks ever turn down a really good steak or roast. Folks seem to enjoy that meat. Okay, I guarantee you that the meat didn't come from a bull. So: Is using a sharp knife or a pair of Burdizzos cruelty? :D:D:D (There's a really non-PC joke about "cowboy psychology" and this particular action.)

When I was a kid, my grandmother made money from selling eggs. To keep varmint populations down, she'd leave piece of bread where the pets wouldn't get to it, but varmints could. Back in the WW II era, you could go to the drugstore and buy a toothpaste-size tube of strychnine poison--of which she'd put some on the bread. Was that cruel?

Ever seen a hawksbill shrike eating on a not-yet-dead bird? I have. Is the shrike cruel?

Leaving hunting out of it, I sorta figure that if you don't cause some sort of pain and grief to any animal, you're doing okay. Similarly in the other direction: If you're taking care of food, water, sanitation and providing a friendly atmosphere, you're doing okay.

Politically, the SPCA and animal-shelter folks do a bunch of unappreciated good. PETA and HSUS, well, bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
 
About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.

We condemn it because it needs to be condemned.

Thinking since we are human that we have some special right to be cruel is what is bizarre.


Has nothing to do with killing what you and those you provide for need to live, or controlling a population where other checks and balances don't.
 
Doesn't a wolf just force itself on a caribou? Doesn't the fox do it to a rabbit?
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yes, they do...but not for sport or pleasure. They do it for survival and they do not do it in a cruel manner just to inflict pain or to see which animal is stronger. They do not do it to make themselves feel superior. They do it to eat or to defend themselves. That is the very core of the difference between hunting and trophy hunting.
 
I had a coyote hit the chicken coup. He killed all of the chickens but only one was missing. Why did he kill all of the chickens when he couldn't possibly eat them all? There was no sound reason for this. I have had a bull kill a younger bull, he didn't eat this younger bull but he sure did show his power and he seamed to enjoy his status as the leader. At other times he would have no problem pushing other cows around sometimes pinning them between objects.

I really don't think we can say an animal only kills for needs. BTW I culled this bull for safety reasons.

I have other examples and there is a known fact of the pecking order for chickens. Even the free range chickens will do the same as a cage chicken. They will keep pecking on a single chicken until they kill it. Animal on animal violence is some of the must cruelest killing that I have ever personal seen.

So I don't buy the animals are natural and only kill for sound life sustaining reasons. Because that is not true.

However let us not loose sight of what we were asked to ponder. As hunters do we feel animal cruelty is bad and I think the majority answer is yes. However be very careful on what you want to list as cruelty.

Trophy hunting is not cruelty. The animal is killed the same as any other animal hunted. A trophy hunter doesn't beat, smash (for fun or thrill) or do anything different than a regular deer hunter does. You may not be a trophy hunter, which I am not but I'm not going to segregate them into criminals.
 
I think hunting is pretty much hard wired in to us. You can enjoy the hunt and view the kill as a reality to be satisfied and thankful for.

Making distinctions whether you own the animal, or whether cruelty to animals is like cruelty toward humans is the typical forum tangents that will get you off where you forgot what you were even talkng about.

I eat all that I kill, always have and always will. Works for me.
 
About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.
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I Have always had problems talking to cats and other animals, they never want open up and tell me what they are feeling and thinking. Therefore I have to ascribe feelings, emotions and motivations to them based upon self-referential information. Wrong I know, but short of being Dr. Doolittle it is my only option. I am glad after all this time someone was able to talk with the animals and find out what they were thinking and why they do the things they do. :rolleyes:
 
Wolves are verified "THRILL KILLERS" yet PBP wants them left alone (from another thread)... They trill kill depleting the deer and elk herds as well as cattle and sheep herds. They DO NOT kill humanely and are on video taking bites of meat while the wounded animal is still alive...
I have no use for any tree hugger as I ain't met one yet that has an ounce of understanding in regards to the real world!
Just to maintain my TFL membership, I will leave it at that.
Brent
 
I Have always had problems talking to cats and other animals, they never want open up and tell me what they are feeling and thinking. Therefore I have to ascribe feelings, emotions and motivations to them based upon self-referential information. Wrong I know, but short of being Dr. Doolittle it is my only option. I am glad after all this time someone was able to talk with the animals and find out what they were thinking and why they do the things they do.
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Did you ever watch a cat torment a mouse for a hour before he kills him, or do you live in the city and think they eat cat food. They routinely play with their prey until it is dead.

I don't care what they are thinking.
 
Pleasure

About the only animals that I know that kill just for the joy of it is a house cat, and a few humans.
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There was an animal show that studied the physiological rsponse of predators after a kill. They did blood work and heart rates. The lab work showed that lions might actually get some sort of pleasure from killing. Endorphines were found in blood after the kill. We know how they make us feel. Now it is impossible to ascertain with one hundred percent certainty whether an animal has any pleasure in killing other animls, but no one can say they don't with any certainty either.

I also saw that in the study of chimps, they found that they were not the peaceful gentle creatures that they had thought they were. In fact, Jane Goodall(sp?) was shocked when she saw them hunt for smaller monkey species to eat. She even saw them form gangs and murder fellow chimps.

We humans are not so unique!

Now, want to talk about cruel. Anyone ever see how wolves bring down large animals. the literally disembowl them while they are alive. It is not a quick and painless death by any means. Even cougars suffocate deer to death. I don't want to die, but if I had to, a bullet would be prefered to any of those methods.
 
I agree 100% Roy. I hate cats anyway.

But, if the only way you can kill something is with your teeth it ain't gonna be pretty.

A man has a choice to make it as painless as he possibly can.
 
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