Ammo capacity in CCW firearms: Getting a little carried away?

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The 1% I agree with is moving away from trouble (before it starts). The submissive thing too, to a point, but that would just be deception, and only come in immediately prior to the explosive response on my part that followed.

Everything else is a losing mindset in a game that gives up to much if you lose.

By the way, Im a lot closer to you than I am to Texas, but here in PA, we have a lot more in common with Texas than we do with RI.
 
Posted by SwampYankee: Where I come from it's 100% accurate.
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This part is accurate: " Valid self defense shots should be...[taken] when no other options exist".

This part is accurate:" A carry permit does not make you a law enforcement officer. Your job is to move away from danger at all costs, not into it."

This part is accurate: "And if you put 16 rounds into someone, you're going to look like a maniac when the jury decides your guilt [or innocence]." However, it is not something that is not rather routinely and successfully justified in court. See the Tom Givens DVD.

The rest? No, not really.
 
"...there is almost always exception to the rule..."

A truly amazing story. Talk about trouble finding you.

"How was your hit rate then? "

On a good day, 10 out of 10, on a bad day less than that. When shooting, my first 20 rounds are right on, and after that the accuaracy deteriorates, so I don't shoot a lot of rounds per session.

My ammo CCW package is about 20 rounds.

Check your 6.
 
Not to be piling on, but,
A carry permit does not make you a law enforcement officer.
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is true, and
Your job is to move away from danger at all costs, not into it.
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is reasonable, as well. But,
In that context, 6 bullets should do you. If you get attacked by 4 people, you should not have been where you were. Your mistakes were made well before you ever had to pull a weapon. I do not need 100 rounds of ammo because I am smart, I avoid danger and dangerous situations. I am submissive when need be, I move away from trouble. If you think you need 100 rounds of ammo, you are looking for trouble.
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ignores, as was previously pointed out, that trouble can come to you regardless of your location, as well as the fact that there are plenty of numbers between 6 and 100.

Lots of people - probably a majority - carry semis with capacities of 7, 10, 15, 17 rounds, usually with at least one extra magazine, and do it safely and responsibly, with thoughtful consideration of their choices. Ignoring that choice - or, if such is your intention, denigrating them by falsely making them seem to be crackpots for carrying a hundred rounds - is downright silly and in the latter case more than a little insulting.
 
i never met anyone who thought they had too many bullets in their gun. having said that smaller, lower capacity guns put the C in CCW and for most people and situations they are enough, especially with a reload or two.

also i have never heard of a BG saying........i see you have little girls gun, i can tell by small size and frame and little hole in the barrel. i laugh at your little girls gun and the small amount of ammunition it holds so give me money and have woman take clothes off so i can violate her.
 
I have no law enforcement or military background, just an average guy who has been around firearms on and off since I was a kid.

I participated in a tactical range day this summer and one of the things that became abundantly clear is that training under stressful situations is extraordinarily important. The RO / Instructor had a tactical course setup that each of us would run through (blind the first time) while he was yelling (announcing targets we hadn't seen, take cover, move faster, etc.) at us over our shoulder, intentionally creating a high-stress situation.

Guys who were crack shots under regular range conditions, were panicking and burning through prodigious amounts of ammunition and in many cases running out of ammo before hitting or even engaging all of the targets on the course. There were also guys gassing half-way through in the summer heat, covered in sweat, dropping full mags, etc.

I'm sure this goes without saying for all of you, but it definitely showed me exactly how important training under these sorts of conditions is for someone like me with no LE or military training and it really puts the debates about pistol type, caliber, ammo, etc. in perspective... if I turn to jelly in a SD situation, it doesn't matter much whether I have a 10MM Semi-Auto w/ 10 mags on my belt or a J-frame with five .38s in the cylinder.
 
I carry a few different guns and i never feel undergunned any which way i carry.I'm 5'10" 228 and i can conceal anything i want pretty much.

I often carry a glock 22 with 15+1 in chamber and 2 exta mags in a shoulder holster or i may carry a S&W 686 4 inch with no extra speed loader.It all depends on how i carry and right now i feel good carrying G22 in shoulder holster.I don't think of the extra mags as anything but a counter weight for the gun on my right side.

When i carry my revolver i carry strong side with nothing else on the other side but thats what i'm used to.
 
mrvco....^What you said is True and the bottom line of it all.

It's all about your mind set, and how you would react in an actual Self Defence scenario.
Especially if the bad guy is shooting at you. At a very close distance.
 
Posted by mrvco: I participated in a tactical range day this summer and one of the things that became abundantly clear is that training under stressful situations is extraordinarily important. The RO / Instructor had a tactical course setup that each of us would run through (blind the first time) while he was yelling (announcing targets we hadn't seen, take cover, move faster, etc.) at us over our shoulder, intentionally creating a high-stress situation.

Guys who were crack shots under regular range conditions, were panicking and burning through prodigious amounts of ammunition and in many cases running out of ammo before hitting or even engaging all of the targets on the course. There were also guys gassing half-way through in the summer heat, covered in sweat, dropping full mags, etc.

I'm sure this goes without saying for all of you, but it definitely showed me exactly how important training under these sorts of conditions is for someone like me with no LE or military training and it really puts the debates about pistol type, caliber, ammo, etc. in perspective...
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Good post, and very appropriate to the discussion.

When I took the course I mentioned above, the first thing I realized was how little of what I had been practicing at the range would help me in a real SD encounter.

The second was how much I really did need good training from qualified instructors.

Finally, I understood why my CCW instructor had urged everyone to practice getting shots on a paper plate at close range. I had thought that he was simply setting a very low threshold for accuracy, rather than describing a very good technique.

Based on my own experience, I can say the people with considerable bulls-eye and range experience with handguns but with no relevant high-performance defensive pistol training most often find themselves developing the wrong skills and adopting the wrong mindset for a serious encounter.

Rectifying that with training is step one, and at the same time one is likely to start to realize just how many hits may be required to stop a determined violent criminal actor. Reading the FBI report cited above will also rid people of some cherished misconceptions gained from watching movies and television.

For those who are really serious, courses at places like Gunsite Academy are excellent, but if one cannot attend those, I have heard nothing but good things about the training that Tom Givens puts on at Rangemaster in Memphis and elsewhere around the country. I took a classroom course with Massad Ayoob there not long ago and found that pax had attended the shooting class there. I did not sign up for the shooting class because I had been having back problems. I wish I had.

Expensive they are, but what is your life worth? It could make the difference.

One thing it will do is dispel any belief that one that one might have that "one accurate shot per perp" is a viable strategy, and it will most probably cause one to rethink carrying a five shot snubbie.
 
This is one I've really wondered about, too. Maybe this should be a different thread but how many of the people posting here have actually been in a firefight where they have used their gun? How may people even personally know anyone that has been in that situation? Maybe my town is too small but the number of times where an assailant attacks an UNKNOWN victim using a handgun (where it would be legally defensible to shoot back) is pretty small. I have never heard of a case (except drug deals gone bad) where two sides shot it out around here.

Could there possibly be a case where you need the 15+1 plus another mag, etc ?? - probably but I haven't heard of it happening yet. A awful lot of what is written seems to me to very theoretical. I have a hunch that one gun in someones face will do the trick with ZERO rounds fired 90+% of the time as long as you can get the gun out and point it. if you can't do that you better be able to duke it out because your gun won't help you much.

That said I do have a 9mm 15+1 round choice to carry (from having read so much by the experst out there) but the more I think about it the less likely I am of doing so. I'd much rather practice to make sure I hit what I aim at with the first shot - if I can do that I'm pretty sure any other shots will either be redundant (and therefore will get me into big legal trouble) or not necessary. So 5 shots or 16, I'm still going to have some to spare.
 
Posted by Pianoguy: Maybe this should be a different thread but how many of the people posting here have actually been in a firefight where they have used their gun? How may people even personally know anyone that has been in that situation?
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I've never actually fired, and to my knowledge neither has anyone else whom I know, but about five dozen graduates from classes at Rangemaster classes have. You can get a description of ten of those incidents here.

Maybe my town is too small but the number of times where an assailant attacks an UNKNOWN victim using a handgun (where it would be legally defensible to shoot back) is pretty small. I have never heard of a case (except drug deals gone bad) where two sides shot it out around here.
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The likelihood that one will ever need to employ deadly force is remote, at best. One must also take into account the potential consequences, however.

Could there possibly be a case where you need the 15+1 plus another mag, etc ?? - probably but I haven't heard of it happening yet.
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Get the DVD. At least one case involved the use of an entire double column magazine.

The real reason for a second magazine is for clearing a jam.

I'd much rather practice to make sure I hit what I aim at with the first shot - if I can do that I'm pretty sure any other shots will either be redundant (and therefore will get me into big legal trouble) or not necessary.
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Read Posts 107 and 111, avail yourself of some training, and then tell us just how you would do that.

Then tell us why you think that that one hit, if you could pull it off, would stop the attacker.

The average number of shots fired in the incidents described on the DVD was 4.8.

No one fired 4.8 rounds. And averages do not matter.

A number of the defenders would have been in very hot water indeed had they only had five shots available.
 
When I did the live-fire training and qualification for my carry permit (I know it's not the same as Real Life) my personal goal was to get all the bullets on the target as fast as I possibly could, keeping them in about a 8 inch "shotgun" pattern at whatever range we were shooting that particular target at. If they were in a nice tight group, I was shooting too slow. If the group was larger than that or if I had misses, that meant my technique sucked.

I found that I could do pretty good kind-of point shooting as long as the gun sights were in my field of vision. Actually bringing the gun up where I could line the front sight on the target wasted too much time. Ignoring the sights completely and I was all over the place -- not as bad as I expected but not nearly good enough.

I need to practice "hammers" again when shooting an automatic. (that's kind of like a doubletap but it's faster) I don't have a good holster for my automatic and not sure where to find one cuz I'm a lefty. Lately I've been practicing with nothing but my carry revolver -- more power but less shots, so I don't even try doubles.

I don't know what this has to do with this discussion but it seemed relevant. :rolleyes:
 
Could there possibly be a case where you need the 15+1 plus another mag, etc ?? - probably but I haven't heard of it happening yet.
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As I posted a couple of pages back, there was a write up by Ayoob his column in American Handgunner dealing with basically this very thing.

A point blank encounter between a cop and a bad guy. Both emptied their guns, the bag guy getting one hit out of 9, the cop, 7 out of 14, both using .45acp's.

This wasnt any drawn out affair either, the time involved, start to finish was 5-10 seconds, and the range 5-6 feet.

Considering the cop is, or is supposed to be, a "trained" individual, and only had a 50% hit rate, and thats simply "hits, I dont think the boy died, kind of makes you wonder how well youre going to do, especially if your "skill level" is based on how well you do in practice shooting at bulls eye targets, at your leisure, on a static range.

There were a total of 23 rounds fired with 8 hits at spitting distance. Are you still confidant your 5 shot J frame is enough to solve the problem? Even if you have "perfect" hits where you think they belong, anything short of a CNS shot may likely never even be noticed until a number of rounds down the road, or even reloads later.

Handguns are poor stoppers as it is, and just because you shot someone where youre supposed to, doesnt mean they will be impressed with you or your gun. You have to shoot them until they are down and done. That takes what it takes, and not a round less. Hopefully, you have more than less along.

The link to the article is in post #60 if youre interested.
 
Pistol rounds do VERY strange things Seaman

"All I can tell yah is I can't stop a 230 gr bullet between my eyes and get back up." Seaman

Well, and I hate to keep using examples from around here (its been a bad year) there was a recent shooting where the cop let off a 180 grn. JHP of a well known and often used by LE .40 S&W round from about 8 feet that hit the hostage taker dead on between the running lights. Bullet curved around the skull and exited out the back after traveling under the skin of the skull!
He (bad guy) is still living, not sure he got right back up.... I would never make flat out statements about firearms or ammo, in 35 years have seen Mr. Murphy come to call way too often! :cool:

And as to how much ammo to bring to a gun fight: The reason the County Sheriff's now carry SA Hi caps is because one of their k-9's nearly lost a fight with a bank robber (9mm) after shooting his S&W .357 Five times. Bad guy thought the cop was empty (miss counted number of expended rounds) but cop had one round left when when bad guy ran up on him, (Cop took a round in the left hand - lost pinky) expecting the cop to be empty but got
158 grn JHP .357 surprise in chest from point blank. Bad guy lived in this one also. Ya just never know!
 
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Late to the post but to be 6 shots is a bit light to be comfortable with even if the statement "6 bullets should do you" is true, the key word here is should and if the word 'should' was as reliable is it should be, most of us would not need to carry guns (where we live we 'should' be safe, where we go we 'should' be safe, ect.) The problem is you can't rely on how things should happen. We carry guns in case of what might happen and for that reason 6 rounds are too few to me. For me it's easy to think up scenarios where 6 rounds are too few, especially these days. I like my 15. At that count I don't feel I need to worry about a spare magazine (which I'm likely to not have time to reload if I need it) and I don't worry about messing with the +1, Just load 15 rounds in the magazine and into the gun. done. :cool:
 
Statistics are changing as far as what constitutes a "normal" assualt. Usd to be 2-3 second and 2-3 shots. Bad guys are traveling in packs (gangs) now. Home invasions, guys crancked up on Meth, psycologically impaired folks, and so on. And the fact pistol caliber wapons (any of them) are lousy at stopping people. Plus a civilian will usually live or die with what's on board their gun. reloads are not very likely. So no I want lots of rounds. If you don't need them it can't hurt. If you do it can (and has) get people killed.
 
It looks as if the common baggage that people bring to discussions such as these falls into three categories of misconception:

  1. Shoooting an attacker will be rather easy, like shooting a stationary target at the range whan one is prepared and has his wits about him, and one is not likely to miss.
  2. One can reasonably expect a single hit to stop an assailant effectively, the way it happens on television and the movies.
  3. Because about 60% of all street attacks involve a single assailant, it is reasonable to expect to be attacked by only one person.

Some good training will almost certainly cure one of the first belief.

A little research, including studying the FBI report on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness and some columns, articles, and books by Massad Ayoob will enlighten one in the second area.

For the third issue, study published crime statistics, obtain this DVD from Rangemaster, learn something about conditional probabilities, and try to put yourself in the shoes of criminals trying to select a victim from among able bodied persons and to decide whether to attack alone or with an accomplice.

Of the above, I strongly suggest starting with training.

Regarding the original topic, most of the people whom I know who have availed themselves of such training tend now to carry more rounds rather than fewer.
 
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Not that Black Swan - :D

Anyway, the hallways of the major building I work in are much longer than 50 ft. Thus, a Cho or Columbine incident could well entail that distance.

Also, IIRC, the first officer that engaged the Columbine shooters did it at 60 yards.

So the mean distance as what ALWAYS happens is BS. So is the mean number of shots.

The mean isn't what always happens. Some people need a stat course.

You don't plan that the mean always happens. You have to decide where in the tail of incident intensity you will make your cut on the preparednesss and equipment scales.

If you don't train at all or just shoot some inanimate object under minimal stress, that doesn't transfer necessarily to your performance in an intense incident. To think it would is rather silly hubris.
 
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