Ammo capacity in CCW firearms: Getting a little carried away?

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Unless of course your Glock will not fire because, in the course of pushing the muzzle up into the fat guy's torso, you've shoved the slide out of battery. The point here is that no one platform is the best for every possible situation. I find myself much more likely to have to fight one very large individual than a gang, so a revolver is the best choice for me (particularly one in .357 or .44 Magnum). You, on the other hand, may be more likely to be accosted by a gang than a single large person so you may be better served by a semi-auto.

the revolver could be jammed as far as up his stomach as you want, that's true, unless of course the fat guy puts his finger behind the trigger inside your trigger guard

i'd never jam a pistol into someone's side, i don't want him touching it at all...

the point behind my argument is that you're more likely to encounter no threat at all, therefore if you're going to plan for the 'most likely' scenario, you should leave your pistol in the safe

if you're not going to leave your pistol in the safe, then you're planning for a 'less likely' situation, and it makes no logical sense to say 'i should plan for this bad scenario but i don't care to plan for this even worse scenario'
 
i'd never jam a pistol into someone's side, i don't want him touching it at all...
I agree, if at all possible, and Id try my best to make it not happen.

All someone has to do with the revolver, is grab the gun around the cylinder and its as useless as an auto pushed out of battery (unless it were already cocked, which is unlikely). It takes no effort at all to tie the gun up with a simple grasp.

The Glocks are actually pretty tolerant to contact shots (more so than other autos Ive tried), unless you really push on them. Still, best not to go there if you can help it.
 
Posted by Webleymkv: I've often wondered, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, just how quickly and accurately the people advocating one type of handgun or another could engage multiple moving targets that are shooting back at them regardless of what gun they're using.
Good high performance defensive pistol training is designed to assess and develop the skills needed to engage more than one moving attacker very quickly at self defense ranges.

I took such a course last year. After one long day of shooting with one-on-one instruction, video recording, and timers, both my speed and hits on target improved by more than 30%.

The instructors, who were ranked competitors, were able to shoot each of three torso sized steel targets twice, replace the magazine (a skill necessary to address malfunctions), and repeat the cycle, all in about four seconds. Obviously, a lot of practice is required.

I used a seven shot Commander length .45 with an Officer sized grip frame with extra magazines. I was advised that I would be handicapped by my choice of weapon, and that advice proved correct. Students using service-size 9mm and .40 caliber handguns had an advantage.

I did not participate in the second day of the class, which involved drawing, presenting, shooting at multiple targets, and reloading while running forward, backward, and sideways, and from cover.

Obviously, if someone is shooting at you, you are in real jeopardy.

I cannot place my electronic hands on the data right now, but I recall from some DoJ stats that when street attacks occur, they involve one attacker about 60% of the time, and two or more attackers, about 40%.

There were no data showing any further breakdown by gender of the victims. My unsubstantiated assumption is that an attacker may be somewhat reluctant to engage a fit male victim without an accomplice unless he is confident of achieving surprise.
 
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Unless of course your Glock will not fire because, in the course of pushing the muzzle up into the fat guy's torso, you've shoved the slide out of battery. The point here is that no one platform is the best for every possible situation. I find myself much more likely to have to fight one very large individual than a gang, so a revolver is the best choice for me (particularly one in .357 or .44 Magnum). You, on the other hand, may be more likely to be accosted by a gang than a single large person so you may be better served by a semi-auto.

unless of course the fat guy puts his finger behind the trigger inside your trigger guard

i'd never jam a pistol into someone's side, i don't want him touching it at all...

If someone is on top of you, meaning you're lying on the ground and in physical contact with the person, you may very well have no choice but to take a contact shot. A semi-automatic handgun requires a ceratin abount of empty space for the slide/bolt/toggle to operate in in order to be able to cylce. While we may not do certain things by choice, circumstances beyond our control may force us to anyway.

the point behind my argument is that you're more likely to encounter no threat at all, therefore if you're going to plan for the 'most likely' scenario, you should leave your pistol in the safe

if you're not going to leave your pistol in the safe, then you're planning for a 'less likely' situation, and it makes no logical sense to say 'i should plan for this bad scenario but i don't care to plan for this even worse scenario'

It is equally nonsensical to plan for one very remote bad situation while ignoring another equally bad situation that you are more likely to find yourself in. I am far more likely to have to take a contact shot against an extremely large opponent than I am to have to engage multiple attackers, so the former situation takes priority in my plans over tha latter.

That is not to say that I'm completely helpless against multiple attackers, because I'm not. I have no intention of standing static blazing away like Wild Bill in the streets of Deadwood because that's poor tactics. If a gunfight is so prolonged that I have time to expend the five or six shots in my revolver, I need to be retreating, seeking cover, seeking a more substantial weapon (i.e. shotgun or rifle), and/or reloading (and I do carry spare ammunition). While a moving, shooting attacker is quite difficult to hit, so is a moving, shooting defender.

As I said before, no one gun can adequately prepare you for every possible situation. This is why we have so many different types of firearms: different tools for different jobs. We can fantisize about remote Hollywood-like situations to ad nauseum, but that's not nearly as useful as examining our own lives and choosing a firearm accordingly. A high-capacity semi-auto is not the best gun for everyone and neither is a revolver, it depends on the person and his/her circumstances.
 
My car gun is a MP 40C .with 4, 15 rd mag ,s My edc is a RUGER SP101 357 MAG with two mtm case guards as reload 36+5 .If that is not enough I am in deep trouble.
 
So now, we have two equally bad situations that are dealt with best by two separate platforms, so which do you choose? Picking a revolver will put you at an even greater disadvantage with the gang and picking the auto will put you at an even greater disadvantage with the biker.

What does ammo capacity, caliber, type of firearm have to do with someone who's so far behind the self preservation curve as to allow a 400 lb. biker draw a knife and get on top of him?

Forget the gun. Get a good life insurance policy for your loved ones.

Question: How does the semi-auto put me at a disadvantage for up real close and personal? That close, your revolver is easily deactivated by a firm grip on the cylinder or hammer.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:
 
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The instructors, who were ranked competitors, were able to shoot each of three torso sized steel targets twice, replace the magazine (a skill necessary to address malfunctions), and repeat the cycle, all in under four tenths of a second. Obviously, a lot of practice is required.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that the instructors were able to accruately fire twelve rounds on three different targets with a reload in the middle in 0.4 seconds all together? I find that somewhat difficult to believe as Jerry Miculeck's world records with a revolver include twelve shots with a reload in between on one target in 2.99 seconds and eight shots with no reload on four targets in 1.06 seconds. Even when you factor the quicker reloads of a semi-auto into the equation (Miculeck is as fast or faster with a revolver than the average shooter with a semi-auto) I still find it difficult to believe that your instructors were over seven times faster than Jerry Miculeck particularly when multple targets were added to the equation.
 
Posted by Webleymkv: I am far more likely to have to take a contact shot against an extremely large opponent than I am to have to engage multiple attackers, so the former situation takes priority in my plans over tha latter.
On average, one is about half again more likely to be attacked by one person than by more than one.

That may vary by gender.

That does not mean that one will have to "take a contact shot" at a single assailant.

I know of no data regarding the size of attackers.

One really should not make individual risk management decisions based on averages. Leave that to risk pool analysis.
 
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So now, we have two equally bad situations that are dealt with best by two separate platforms, so which do you choose? Picking a revolver will put you at an even greater disadvantage with the gang and picking the auto will put you at an even greater disadvantage with the biker.

What does ammo capacity, caliber, type of firearm have to do with someone who's so far behind the self preservation curve as to allow a 400 lb. biker draw a knife and get on top of you?

One could just as easily ask what those factors have to do with someone so far behind the curve as to allow themselves to get in a gunfight with multiple armed attackers who are willing to brave gunfire.
 
Sorry. Four seconds.

I figured that there was probably a miscommunication somewhere (I thought perhaps I was reading it wrong), four seconds sounds much more realistic.

On average, one is about half again more likely to be attacked by one person than by more than one.

That may vary by gender.

That does not mean that one will have to "take a contact shot" at a single assailant.

I know of no data regarding the size of attackers.

One really should not make individual risk management decisions based on averages. Leave that to risk pool analysis.

I'm not basing my decision on averages, but rather on my own personal experiences. The only times in my life that I ever felt as though I'd have to fight my way out of a situation because I could not escape, my opponent was already in extremely close proximity to me. Also, the only people who have ever offered serious aggression towards me were equal to or larger than me in size. Because I'm a fairly large individual myself (6' 4" and 300+lbs), this means that the most likely person to attack me is a rather large individual as well. My conclusions are based on examination of my own life, someone in different circumstances than my own may come to different conclusions.
 
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I used to feel the same way about how many rounds I carried off duty/CCW, until I got involved in my first shooting at a shopping mall and just this weekend an ogre got out of his car in a small urban city just north with two rifles and began firing at random. He was eventually put down by return police fire but it took some time. I have also had in my small home town just south about 5 years ago a subject walking down a major highway firing a rifle at random at cars. He was taken out by an AR15 by a responding officer on his FIRST day on duty by himself. I now feel carry of as much ammo as is practical in as big a gun as I can conceal is the only way to go. Remember if you are out in the suburb wilderness help is a LONG way away. How much fight time do you have?
 
I carry a G23 .40 cal. 14 rounds total. That's plenty for me.

However, one thing I learned both as a former US Army infantryman (albeit never in combat) and in a recent civilian active-shooter course is that in stressful situations, even well-trained shooters tend to fire off a lot of ammo in a very short period of time. It's not spray and pray, it's human nature.

5, 6, 7 rounds can go real quick when violence is up in your grill.
 
Carrying at least one reload is a very good idea. Carrying more is personal choice. Personally, I don't like taking the weight of it......

Interesting how we see things differently.

Those who've trained me always felt that carrying one reload is basic, standard practice.

Carrying two reloads is a good idea, and having 3 reloads is a better idea (even if it's in your car where you'll at least have it).

Always hear similar interesting comments on subjects like this.:

"I don't need more than one reload",

"In my neighborhood I don't need to carry, nothing ever happens."

"The average shooting only calls for 1.3 rds. fired".

"The odds of needing to reload are pretty slim."

".380 is as good as anything--if you hit 'em right."

Comments like "I don't need a reload, or "don't need to carry more than one", are non sensical since no one knows how many will be needed.

I think what's really meant is that "I'm betting that the ammo I carry on me will be suffiecient to handle what comes. That's my choice."

Now, if we only knew what was coming, and how much ammo we'd need, we could stay home that day.
 
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Unless you are a law enforcement officer, gangster, or soldier, who might encounter 5-6 people determined to die trying to kill you....do you really need that much ammo?

Sorry, but this seems to be along the lines of questioning why people would want to own body armor

Yes, I need enough ammo to handle whatever horrible thing happens and I need to be able to sustain myself until which time some 5-45 minutes later that law enforcement shows up with all of their ammo.

With that said, it is my life and my choice. You have no business questioning what I need. If you are comfortable with lesser firepower, that is fine and dandy. I won't question you for being so unprepared.

As I told the nice trooper who wanted to know why I was carrying 2 guns, "Because I don't have a partner standing behind the C pillar of the car with his hand on his gun to cover me like you do."

All it takes is 1 accurate shot.

I take it that you are assuming that there is just one bad guy and that he is presenting you with a deliberately easy target?
 
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