Ammo capacity in CCW firearms: Getting a little carried away?
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TraderJack
New member
I'm not such a fan of the hi-capacity rigs... I've always carried a 1911 and likely will go to my grave with a Commander at my side...
And the 2 extra mags on the opposite hip just seem to balance me out...
Most of us carry for self protection - me too.
If I can't get it done with 24 rounds of .45 ACP HST, well, I guess I'm gone. But, I feel pretty confident about my skills and I know the firearm very well, so... I think 24 is enough.
My .02
And the 2 extra mags on the opposite hip just seem to balance me out...
Most of us carry for self protection - me too.
If I can't get it done with 24 rounds of .45 ACP HST, well, I guess I'm gone. But, I feel pretty confident about my skills and I know the firearm very well, so... I think 24 is enough.
My .02
Unless of course your Glock will not fire because, in the course of pushing the muzzle up into the fat guy's torso, you've shoved the slide out of battery. The point here is that no one platform is the best for every possible situation. I find myself much more likely to have to fight one very large individual than a gang, so a revolver is the best choice for me (particularly one in .357 or .44 Magnum). You, on the other hand, may be more likely to be accosted by a gang than a single large person so you may be better served by a semi-auto.
Mike Irwin
Staff
If you don't have at least 400 rounds on you at all times, you're nothing but a suicidal basket case.
The "wrong place,wrong time" scenario and the "why are you there"question follow the idea that you chose or intended to be in that spot at that time. Is there anyone here who hasn't gotten lost in a strange place and ended up going to someplace they would never go intentionally?
Long ago, I took a wrong turn and ended up in a really bad place and was lucky to get through w/o an incident. I didn't stop at STOP signs, red lights, or for folks in the street. I was sort of hoping for a cruiser to follow me feeling I'd rather face a traffic ticket than what was going on outside. Considering that I could see 10-20 individuals along the street at any one time, my first choice would have been an armored vehicle with a turret mounted M2 but all I had was a Chevelle. Five or six shots would not have been adequate for that situation at that time.
My Father carried a liberated P35(HiPower) in Italy in WW2. He commented once that you had better plan on missing a lot even if you're a good shot(he was) and he had much more experience than I or most of the others on this forum.
Long ago, I took a wrong turn and ended up in a really bad place and was lucky to get through w/o an incident. I didn't stop at STOP signs, red lights, or for folks in the street. I was sort of hoping for a cruiser to follow me feeling I'd rather face a traffic ticket than what was going on outside. Considering that I could see 10-20 individuals along the street at any one time, my first choice would have been an armored vehicle with a turret mounted M2 but all I had was a Chevelle. Five or six shots would not have been adequate for that situation at that time.
My Father carried a liberated P35(HiPower) in Italy in WW2. He commented once that you had better plan on missing a lot even if you're a good shot(he was) and he had much more experience than I or most of the others on this forum.
Let's talk, first of all, about the many different advantages of carrying a reload, or several.
In a revolver, of course you ammunition availability is limited by the very design of the handgun (5-8 rds). And it makes a great deal of sense to have the ability to shoot more than that limited quantity given the situational circumstances, which are not unheard of or far-fetched at all (i.e. multiple attackers, desperate fighting, animal attack, etc...)
In a semi-automatic, this...
is the cause of 80%+ of malfunctions. Handguns malfunctioning when you need to use them cost lives. Simply inserting a fresh magazine and cycling the action is enough to fix most problems that occur with a semi-auto. Thus, carrying at least one spare magazine not only drastically increases your ammunition capacity, but also helps to mitigate the risk that your hangun will become a short club barring a function failure.
Carrying at least one reload is a very good idea. Carrying more is personal choice. Personally, I don't like taking the weight of it. Carrying 100 rounds seems like a lot to me. Carrying 100 rounds of 5.7x28mm will enable you to turn a concrete wall to rubble. Concrete walls don't really bother me that much. But you or your friends may hate them. I don't know.
You can't fault a guy for being too prepared, unless it starts to seriously affect other parts of their life. In psychology, that's called a disorder. Carrying a lot of ammo doesn't sound like a disorder, unless the person plans to be careless with it. If you want it, go for it. I'd rather carry a couple knives, multitool, and flashlight. But that's me.
~LT
In a revolver, of course you ammunition availability is limited by the very design of the handgun (5-8 rds). And it makes a great deal of sense to have the ability to shoot more than that limited quantity given the situational circumstances, which are not unheard of or far-fetched at all (i.e. multiple attackers, desperate fighting, animal attack, etc...)
In a semi-automatic, this...
is the cause of 80%+ of malfunctions. Handguns malfunctioning when you need to use them cost lives. Simply inserting a fresh magazine and cycling the action is enough to fix most problems that occur with a semi-auto. Thus, carrying at least one spare magazine not only drastically increases your ammunition capacity, but also helps to mitigate the risk that your hangun will become a short club barring a function failure.
Carrying at least one reload is a very good idea. Carrying more is personal choice. Personally, I don't like taking the weight of it. Carrying 100 rounds seems like a lot to me. Carrying 100 rounds of 5.7x28mm will enable you to turn a concrete wall to rubble. Concrete walls don't really bother me that much. But you or your friends may hate them. I don't know.
You can't fault a guy for being too prepared, unless it starts to seriously affect other parts of their life. In psychology, that's called a disorder. Carrying a lot of ammo doesn't sound like a disorder, unless the person plans to be careless with it. If you want it, go for it. I'd rather carry a couple knives, multitool, and flashlight. But that's me.
~LT
TheNocturnus
New member
^ This
Also why limit yourself to just a Hi-capacity Semi or a 5-6 shot revolver?
I carry both, at the same time, and a spare magazine. 400lb biker... check, 5 gang members... check.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Here are some of the reasons I disagree with your analysis:
First, I disagree about the trend. It strikes me that the trend is toward smaller concealed carry guns in larger calibers.
Well, it is better as a firearm. The question is to what degree. If you leave the 17rd 9mm at home because it is too inconvenient to carry, then it doesn't do you as much good as a .380 that you do carry.
I can find you plenty of stories of single assailants who took more than 6 shots in the torso and stayed in the fight. That may not be the normal outcome but it does happen.
Second, there is some evidence that the better trained a shooter is, the more likely he is to consume a high amount of ammo using a "shoot until the threat goes away" strategy. If this is the strategy you plan on utilizing in a fight, then you are likely to need more ammo than what a 5-shot snubby will provide.
So even without multiple attackers and even with 100% accuracy, we have circumstances where 5-8 rounds might not be enough. Now add in a more realistic accuracy rate in a situation where both the attacker and shooter are moving.
And what if you do encounter multiple attackers? Just this month the NRA Armed Citizen had an account of a husband who woke to find two men holding a gun to his wife's head and unbeknownst to him, two more men were waiting outside. He ended up firing 8 shots.
Now you can argue that these are low-probability events and I'd agree; but the thing is that much like being attacked to begin with, the consequences are very serious even if the probability is low. And since it really isn't that difficult to carry an extra magazine or a slightly larger pistol, I prefer to have extra ammo as opposed to the tiny convenience of not having to carry an extra 10 rounds of ammo.
Finally, the biggest place I disagree with your analysis is that it relies too much on the mental state of your attacker in my view. Instead of me being the person who controls whether the fight stops, it relies on the probability that the guy will change his mind about trying to do violence to me and flee. And that is the most likely probability; but I am just not comfortable with letting the mindset of the same guy who is trying to kill me be the controlling factor in that outcome.
Again, the NRA Armed Citizen this month had a story where an elderly woman with a .410 shotgun loaded with birdshot stopped three men who broke into her house. As it turned out one of those men was armed; but luckily for her they fled instead of fighting. That is a good outcome and one made possible by first HAVING a gun; but it is also a situation that could have gone bad for her very easily if her attackers had just a slightly different mindset.
First, I disagree about the trend. It strikes me that the trend is toward smaller concealed carry guns in larger calibers.
Well, it is better as a firearm. The question is to what degree. If you leave the 17rd 9mm at home because it is too inconvenient to carry, then it doesn't do you as much good as a .380 that you do carry.
I can find you plenty of stories of single assailants who took more than 6 shots in the torso and stayed in the fight. That may not be the normal outcome but it does happen.
Second, there is some evidence that the better trained a shooter is, the more likely he is to consume a high amount of ammo using a "shoot until the threat goes away" strategy. If this is the strategy you plan on utilizing in a fight, then you are likely to need more ammo than what a 5-shot snubby will provide.
So even without multiple attackers and even with 100% accuracy, we have circumstances where 5-8 rounds might not be enough. Now add in a more realistic accuracy rate in a situation where both the attacker and shooter are moving.
And what if you do encounter multiple attackers? Just this month the NRA Armed Citizen had an account of a husband who woke to find two men holding a gun to his wife's head and unbeknownst to him, two more men were waiting outside. He ended up firing 8 shots.
Now you can argue that these are low-probability events and I'd agree; but the thing is that much like being attacked to begin with, the consequences are very serious even if the probability is low. And since it really isn't that difficult to carry an extra magazine or a slightly larger pistol, I prefer to have extra ammo as opposed to the tiny convenience of not having to carry an extra 10 rounds of ammo.
Finally, the biggest place I disagree with your analysis is that it relies too much on the mental state of your attacker in my view. Instead of me being the person who controls whether the fight stops, it relies on the probability that the guy will change his mind about trying to do violence to me and flee. And that is the most likely probability; but I am just not comfortable with letting the mindset of the same guy who is trying to kill me be the controlling factor in that outcome.
Again, the NRA Armed Citizen this month had a story where an elderly woman with a .410 shotgun loaded with birdshot stopped three men who broke into her house. As it turned out one of those men was armed; but luckily for her they fled instead of fighting. That is a good outcome and one made possible by first HAVING a gun; but it is also a situation that could have gone bad for her very easily if her attackers had just a slightly different mindset.
I would like to start my post by saying I have a single stack 1911 that is actually 7+1. I don't typically carry any spare mags. I am hoping that putting say 4 .45's into someone is enough, if not, I can run a little faster than the average bear.
The meat of this post agrees with the OP but when you can get a firearm as compact as a Glock 23 that will allow you to dump 12+1 rounds of 40S&W into some dirtbag why not enjoy the comfort of that capacity? Add a spare mag and now you're at 25 rnds.
The only time I carry a spare mag is when I am going to a "bad part of town" which is pretty much never.
The meat of this post agrees with the OP but when you can get a firearm as compact as a Glock 23 that will allow you to dump 12+1 rounds of 40S&W into some dirtbag why not enjoy the comfort of that capacity? Add a spare mag and now you're at 25 rnds.
The only time I carry a spare mag is when I am going to a "bad part of town" which is pretty much never.
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bedbugbilly
New member
American Eagle - I agree with you. Having said that, I also think it depends upon the situation.
I'm pretty much a revolver guy and have been for 40 + years of shooting - mostly SA. In fact, I'm hopefully going to pick up a Ruger LCR 357 this week for general CC.
That being said, I winter in AZ and am about 45 miles north of the border. If my wife and I are going to be out driving in the boonies, I may not even carry CC but I do have a Ruger SR9 with us in the car. If we were to break down out in the middle of nowhere, you never know who is going go come along - it might be someone good who wants to help you out - or it could be a drug smuggler, a 2 legged coyote, a group of illegals, etc. In that situation, I feel more comfortable carrying something with greater capacity with a couple of spare magazines.
In the CCW and additional training classes I've taken in Arizona - taught by ex-military, LE and tactical officers - it's generally agreed that in a SD situation, it is going to be "close-up" with only seconds to react and possibly get 2, maye 3 shots off. No matter how you describe the scenario, if an attacker is further away from you, it is probably not going to be considered "life threatening" when viewed by the attacker's attorney when yiou are faced with a civil suit - even if you are cleard of any wrongdoing by the prosecuting attorney when he reviews the shooting. The attacker's attorney is going to view it as if you had time to shoot a number of rounds, you had time to run aor avoid the situation, even if his client was in the wrong.
Just my 2 cents worth - for me, 5 rounds is enough and I'm comfortable with that - in the end though, I suppose it's something that everybody has to decide for themselves and what they are comfortable with.
I'm pretty much a revolver guy and have been for 40 + years of shooting - mostly SA. In fact, I'm hopefully going to pick up a Ruger LCR 357 this week for general CC.
That being said, I winter in AZ and am about 45 miles north of the border. If my wife and I are going to be out driving in the boonies, I may not even carry CC but I do have a Ruger SR9 with us in the car. If we were to break down out in the middle of nowhere, you never know who is going go come along - it might be someone good who wants to help you out - or it could be a drug smuggler, a 2 legged coyote, a group of illegals, etc. In that situation, I feel more comfortable carrying something with greater capacity with a couple of spare magazines.
In the CCW and additional training classes I've taken in Arizona - taught by ex-military, LE and tactical officers - it's generally agreed that in a SD situation, it is going to be "close-up" with only seconds to react and possibly get 2, maye 3 shots off. No matter how you describe the scenario, if an attacker is further away from you, it is probably not going to be considered "life threatening" when viewed by the attacker's attorney when yiou are faced with a civil suit - even if you are cleard of any wrongdoing by the prosecuting attorney when he reviews the shooting. The attacker's attorney is going to view it as if you had time to shoot a number of rounds, you had time to run aor avoid the situation, even if his client was in the wrong.
Just my 2 cents worth - for me, 5 rounds is enough and I'm comfortable with that - in the end though, I suppose it's something that everybody has to decide for themselves and what they are comfortable with.
armsmaster270
New member
I carry a Sig 226 in 357Sig with 1 spare magazine and a S&W 340PD Bug with 1 Speedloader all the time. If I never use them that is fine. If I need them they are priceless.
I would actually have to disagree that we've been trending toward hi-capacity CCW pieces in the past 5 years. If anything, I believe smaller low-capacity firearms are the new fad. 20 round pistols were the rage 20 years ago. Now I dare say they have a pretty low market share of the current firearms market. Just look at how hard it was to get .380 ammo a few years ago after Ruger introduced the 6+1 LCP.
As for the original question. For the normal average citizen a six-shot revolver is all the insurance needed.
What you have.
My thought is always carry something you can carry at ALL times (Airweight 38 Sp, etc.) If you feel you may be going into a more potentially risky situation carry more firepower. Some of us are not comfortable carrying a full sized 45 with 4 mags on our person at all times. Practice with all of them. Fortunately, I live in an area where the potential is very low. I do agree with carrying an extra mag, speedloader, or speedstrip. How much extra space does tha take for the insurance it would provide.
My thought is always carry something you can carry at ALL times (Airweight 38 Sp, etc.) If you feel you may be going into a more potentially risky situation carry more firepower. Some of us are not comfortable carrying a full sized 45 with 4 mags on our person at all times. Practice with all of them. Fortunately, I live in an area where the potential is very low. I do agree with carrying an extra mag, speedloader, or speedstrip. How much extra space does tha take for the insurance it would provide.
In Harris County, Texas, a resident took on a gang of home invaders. The Good Guy fired 6 shots from a 1911, the Bad Guys returned fire and the Good Guy was cut down by 7.62x39, 9mm para and 22 LR bullets. He died. All 6 shots he fired missed. Distance 20-25 feet. A police detective said the homeowner was "out-gunned."
In another incident a local gang leader went after a Good Guy. Bad Guy fired multiple rounds (45 ACP) at the Good Guy who ran for his life, stopped in a park, turned, took careful aim, and fired one shot from his 45 pistol. Bad Guy was hit in the head and killed instantly. Distance 50 yards (150 feet). A police detective said it was a "lucky shot."
All it takes is 1 accurate shot.
Personally I don't like carrying reloads: speed-loaders or magazines, prefer 1 or 2 BUGs instead.
What if I have a broken firing pin? Happened to a New Jersey police officer shooting an HK P7.
Reloading also means I risk taking my eyes off the perp (or perps) and that's a very bad thing.
Sold off my hi-caps, only have 1 left, and don't carry it very often, prefer a single stack pistol and a J-frame.
In another incident a local gang leader went after a Good Guy. Bad Guy fired multiple rounds (45 ACP) at the Good Guy who ran for his life, stopped in a park, turned, took careful aim, and fired one shot from his 45 pistol. Bad Guy was hit in the head and killed instantly. Distance 50 yards (150 feet). A police detective said it was a "lucky shot."
All it takes is 1 accurate shot.
Personally I don't like carrying reloads: speed-loaders or magazines, prefer 1 or 2 BUGs instead.
What if I have a broken firing pin? Happened to a New Jersey police officer shooting an HK P7.
Reloading also means I risk taking my eyes off the perp (or perps) and that's a very bad thing.
Sold off my hi-caps, only have 1 left, and don't carry it very often, prefer a single stack pistol and a J-frame.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Sounds like he wouldn't have done much better with a Gatling Gun, really.
For years I've carried a 5 or 6 shot revolver and have felt perfectly comfortable with it.
For years I've carried a 5 or 6 shot revolver and have felt perfectly comfortable with it.
There's a lot of truth to that. I've often wondered, when the subject of multiple attackers comes up, just how quickly and accurately the people advocating one type of handgun or another could engage multiple moving targets that are shooting back at them regardless of what gun they're using.
I posted this awhile back. It covers a shoot out between a cop and a suspect, both armed with .45ACPs, distance was about 5-6 feet. Guns were already out for both. 23 rounds expended in 5-10 seconds. Both shot to slide lock. The bad guy got one hit out of 9, the cop, 7 of 14. His comment at the end about why he thought his first rounds were probably "misses" is interesting.
Starts on page 32. (click on the magazine cover to start)
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/
Especially since many, if not most, dont practice even remotely realistically when they do practice. How many here base their "skills" on what they do to bull eye targets at their leisure with the gun already in their hands and their feet glued to the ground?
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