AMMO Act?
- Thread starter Beentown71
- Start date
- Status
Come and take it.
New member
According to the number crunching they are buying more in the first half of this year than they have bought in the 3 whole previous years. And that with 264 million round surplus.
See the link I provided. It is about as thorough an explanation as any I have seen so far.
See the link I provided. It is about as thorough an explanation as any I have seen so far.
zincwarrior
New member
And of course, if there is a permanent demand shift here, over time manufacturing will increase production on a permanent basis as well. So even if the govenrment is getting spendy in an attempt to play with the market - in the long time manufacturing will laugh all the way to the bank and make even more.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Mike, that's great, but 173 rds per month is a staggeringly high average for a federal training allotment."
I was answering NWCP's question regarding Social Security Administration agents.
My question to you, and others who see this as sure signs of IMPENDING JACKBOOTED DOOM!!! is...
SHOULD 173 rounds a month be a high monthly training average? I, personally, think that if these people are being asked to carry a gun in the performance of their regular duties they damned well SHOULD be training monthly. None of this "40 rounds a year = professional competency" crap!
Let me ask this, though...
How many of us know people who routinely shoot 500+ rounds a month?
Where's the fear mongering about that? These people are obviously practicing with the intent of forming a private army and overthrowing the gubmint for their own nefarious purposes!
Every time there's a law enforcement shooting in which it is reported that most of the fired rounds were misses people come out of the woodwork screaming about incompetent officers not able to hit the broad side of a barn and why should they even be allowed to have guns...
But, when it appears that some agencies may actually be taking steps to improve and professionalize the firearms competency of their forces, some of the same people start screaming about how this is proof that the Government Jackboot will soon be crushing the liberty loving American people into a godless police state.
Jesus...
I was answering NWCP's question regarding Social Security Administration agents.
My question to you, and others who see this as sure signs of IMPENDING JACKBOOTED DOOM!!! is...
SHOULD 173 rounds a month be a high monthly training average? I, personally, think that if these people are being asked to carry a gun in the performance of their regular duties they damned well SHOULD be training monthly. None of this "40 rounds a year = professional competency" crap!
Let me ask this, though...
How many of us know people who routinely shoot 500+ rounds a month?
Where's the fear mongering about that? These people are obviously practicing with the intent of forming a private army and overthrowing the gubmint for their own nefarious purposes!
Every time there's a law enforcement shooting in which it is reported that most of the fired rounds were misses people come out of the woodwork screaming about incompetent officers not able to hit the broad side of a barn and why should they even be allowed to have guns...
But, when it appears that some agencies may actually be taking steps to improve and professionalize the firearms competency of their forces, some of the same people start screaming about how this is proof that the Government Jackboot will soon be crushing the liberty loving American people into a godless police state.
Jesus...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A contract for an unusual amount of ammo is not extraordinary evidence. To make a claim like that based completely on a single contract, and nothing else to support it is borderline tin foil hat stuff.
The official line makes sense. However, I would still question the purchase since we're in this sequester thing. We're supposed to be saving money, not spending it.
I think you're missing the point. This doesn't mean they're trying to influence the market. You're taking your presupposition of gov't officials wanting to take away our guns, and using this contract as "proof" that they are trying to influence ammo prices. Yet, there is absolutely no other evidence to support your claim. There are other possibilities for the purchase, but you are going to ignore them because they conflict with your beliefs.
I'm going to give you a hint to help you. Don't believe everything you read on Rense and Infowars. When they make extraordinary claims, ask them for extraordinary evidence. Don't propagate their claims without sufficient evidence.
And that's the part that the people throwing around the FUD about "OMG gubbermint iz bying amo so we cn't by it!!!1111" are forgetting. Even if what you are saying is true, in the long run it won't make any difference. Ammo manufacturers will spend the money to increase production to meet the permanent increase in demand, prices will go down, and there will be more ammo than ever available. If they are trying to drive up prices to make it more difficult, this is the wrong way to do it, because in the long run it simply won't work.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Gaerek, that's an excellent analysis of how conspiracy theories work and why it's so hard to argue against them. Well done.
Concerning the DHS ammunition purchases, I'll add the following. The hysteria over this goes back to last August, well before Sandy Hook and the panic buying that followed. As far as I can tell (this stuff is hard to trace), the rumors were started on Infowars. At that time, the the DHS was said to be preparing for massive civil unrest:
So the theory has changed to fit current events: last August, the DHS was preparing to wage war on American citizens. Now the same "evidence" is being used to support the theory that the government is behind the ammunition shortage of the past few months.
This is about fear-mongering, not about reality.
Concerning the DHS ammunition purchases, I'll add the following. The hysteria over this goes back to last August, well before Sandy Hook and the panic buying that followed. As far as I can tell (this stuff is hard to trace), the rumors were started on Infowars. At that time, the the DHS was said to be preparing for massive civil unrest:
Although the ammo purchases are ostensibly earmarked for training purposes, the DHS has been reticent to clarify why such an unusually large amount of rounds are necessary and why such powerful bullets are required merely for training drills.
This has led to speculation that the purchases are connected to confirmed preparations for civil unrest in the United States.
This has led to speculation that the purchases are connected to confirmed preparations for civil unrest in the United States.
So the theory has changed to fit current events: last August, the DHS was preparing to wage war on American citizens. Now the same "evidence" is being used to support the theory that the government is behind the ammunition shortage of the past few months.
This is about fear-mongering, not about reality.
Ahhh....that is one scenario. But let me spin you a different one, just to play devil's advocate.
What if the goal is to put the ammo manufacturers into bankruptcy? What if, in pursuit of that goal, you artificially inflate perceived demand (both by your own orders as well as the expectation of future shortages by retail purchasers)? Do that long enough, and the manufacturers might just invest in expensive new factories, tooling and employees, not to mention raw materials. And just as they have incurred massive capital costs and debt, you pull the rug out from under them and cancel all your open orders? That'd probably be enough to put them into bankruptcy - right where you want them.
I don't believe all this, mind you - just throwing it out there to keep the conversation going.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"To make a claim like that based completely on a single contract, and nothing else to support it is borderline tin foil hat stuff."
No, it's not.
It is absolutely 100% tin foil hat screaming mimi stuff.
No, it's not.
It is absolutely 100% tin foil hat screaming mimi stuff.
Nice bit of detective work Vanya. A shifting narrative, to fit what we see in current events is a very common thing to see in conspiracy theories. Before the panic, the ammo purchases must have been because of civil unrest. Now since ammo is scarce, it must be because DHS is buying ammo.
Or, ammo is scarce because people are lining up a 4am on shipment days to buy everything they can because they actually believe this crap.
I was being nice and giving the benefit of the doubt.
Or, ammo is scarce because people are lining up a 4am on shipment days to buy everything they can because they actually believe this crap.
I was being nice and giving the benefit of the doubt.
Spats McGee
Administrator
Does anyone have any information about DHS ordering rifle rounds? I have heard some hubbub about some 7K "personal defense weapons" (select fire ARs?) being ordered. What I have not seen is any large order of .223 to go with them. Now, maybe I'm the one not seeing the whole picture here, but if DHS really were gearing up for riot control/civil war/unrest, why would they order pistol calibers? Wouldn't they be ordering boatloads of:
It seems to me that, if DHS really were preparing to clash with the American people, pistol ammuntion would probably NOT be at the top of the To Order list.
- Rifle rounds
- beanbag rounds
- pepper spray/OC spray/tear gas/etc
- riot gear (I did see something online where it had ordered a bunch of this stuff, TBH)
It seems to me that, if DHS really were preparing to clash with the American people, pistol ammuntion would probably NOT be at the top of the To Order list.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I was being nice and giving the benefit of the doubt."
And I was being one hell of a lot more polite than I wanted to be...
So I guess we were both being good little gubmint mind control robots...
And I was being one hell of a lot more polite than I wanted to be...
So I guess we were both being good little gubmint mind control robots...
But Spats, the narrative has changed. The ammo purchase isn't about civil unrest anymore. It's because the gov't knew Sandy Hook was going to happen, and there would be a panic in ammo buying. So prior to this (back in August, apparently) they signed a contract to buy 1.6 billion rounds in order to incite a panic 4 months later...even though people knew about the contract, and didn't panic buy then, because it was about civil unrest.
*sigh*
That was exhausting. The tangled web that conspiracy theorists weave absolutely amazes me.
This reminds me of the narrative that 9/11 conspiracy theories came up, specifically the Loose Change people. For it to work, it would have required dummy planes, undisclosed airports that could land the original planes without detection, new "super duper nano thermite" that doesn't exist, and about 50,000 co-conspirators that, in 11 years, not a single one has come forward to say there was a conspiracy.
I guess pass the Kool-Aid Mike!
*sigh*
That was exhausting. The tangled web that conspiracy theorists weave absolutely amazes me.
This reminds me of the narrative that 9/11 conspiracy theories came up, specifically the Loose Change people. For it to work, it would have required dummy planes, undisclosed airports that could land the original planes without detection, new "super duper nano thermite" that doesn't exist, and about 50,000 co-conspirators that, in 11 years, not a single one has come forward to say there was a conspiracy.
I guess pass the Kool-Aid Mike!
zincwarrior
New member
That would be a temporary recession. Further, if needed they would file BK as an ongoing entity. Not an issue.
Here's the the thing about the "DHS is playing the market" argument. A quick review of Sportsman's guide online notes
small pistol caliber (primers and cases)
*38 special is backordered.
*.380ACP is backordered
large pistol caliber (primers and cases)
*45 Long colt is on backorder
*.45 ACP is on backorder
*.455 Webley is out (seriously????)
None of these have been noted as having been bought by the DHS. They have different primer sizes and cases. Yet they are all are on backorder as well. Logically only 9mm would be out (and .22lr as a substitute). One could say other small pistol primer dudes might be out too, but that wouldn't impact the big calibers.
Its a bullet bubble, not a government buying up rounds to create a shortage.
For years i would sometimes visit the OK City bombing conspiracy website. Numerous parts of the theory were debunked over time. Not to worry; the conspiracy theorists simply told two or three more lies to cover each lie that was debunked.
Some here apparently believe the Obama DHS is buying much more ammo than DHS under the last administration.
Has anyone here bothered to compare DHS ammunition purchases by the present administration to DHS ammunition purchases by the last administration?
Waiting for the answer.
Some here apparently believe the Obama DHS is buying much more ammo than DHS under the last administration.
Has anyone here bothered to compare DHS ammunition purchases by the present administration to DHS ammunition purchases by the last administration?
Waiting for the answer.
I know, burden of proof isn't on me, but I was curious. Obviously a biased blog (on the tin foil hat side) and this came out after Infowars originally posted the contract (so before the narrative shift), but if the numbers are solid, it does show Obama buying a lot more ammo than Bush.
http://www.alt-market.com/articles/1003-the-history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases
But again, it's still irrelevant. We still don't have any evidence of what they're trying to do. In addition, it shows that there's been an increase in purchasing since Obama took office, and it's not a new thing. Yet, ammo availability has only been affected now?
The Congressional Research Service has checked out this ever evolving conspiracy theory.
From Congressman Paul Broun of GA. When the site opens click "Open" at the prompt:
http://broun.house.gov/policy/dhs-tank-and-ammo-reports.htm
From Congressman Paul Broun of GA. When the site opens click "Open" at the prompt:
http://broun.house.gov/policy/dhs-tank-and-ammo-reports.htm
Maybe in the first year or two. Ammunition purchases have declined dramatically since FY 2010. Check out the link to senator Coburn's website or see table 3 at congressman Broun's link.
Solicitation numbers mean nothing. These are IDIQ contracts: The quantity of ammunition delivered is what matters.
Last edited:
Yep. The problem is the ever shifting goal posts. You attempt to disprove their presupposition? Well, you MUST be wrong, and I'll find something to throw doubt. Once again, this is a Hallmark of a good conspiracy theory.
You want to see this in action? Do some research on the evolution of the 9/11 conspiracy theory. The original theories were actually fairly reasonable considering the information at the time. But as the different aspects became more and more debunked, the theory just became crazier and crazier. The current popular theory is nothing like the original ones that had been created, and it absolutely defies reality. But since we cannot 100% prove that it couldn't happen, it must be right.
You want to see this in action? Do some research on the evolution of the 9/11 conspiracy theory. The original theories were actually fairly reasonable considering the information at the time. But as the different aspects became more and more debunked, the theory just became crazier and crazier. The current popular theory is nothing like the original ones that had been created, and it absolutely defies reality. But since we cannot 100% prove that it couldn't happen, it must be right.
- Status