Thallub's link refers to a letter showing the breakdown in rounds per agency. http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=9cde768f-bb3a-4fd9-8176-1745c21519c2. I recognize ICE, TSA, USSS, and USCG but not the rest of the alphabet agencies. ICE (Immigration) is the agency with the highest round count.
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AMMO Act?
- Thread starter Beentown71
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From your link:
FLETC does a lot of initial and recurrent training, so one would expect them to use a high amount of ammo - they are a training center.
Edit: Also, from that link, Customs and Border Patrol had the highest total rounds purchased. Were you referring to ICE as rounds purchased per LE agent?
CBP = U.S. Customs and Border Protection
FLETC = Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
NPPD/FPS = National Protection and Programs Directorate/Federal Protective Service
ICE = U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
TSA = Transportation Security Administration
USCG = U.S. Coast Guard
USSS = U.S. Secret Service
FLETC does a lot of initial and recurrent training, so one would expect them to use a high amount of ammo - they are a training center.
Edit: Also, from that link, Customs and Border Patrol had the highest total rounds purchased. Were you referring to ICE as rounds purchased per LE agent?
From Fox, via Drudge:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/26/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/
This article indicates DHS uses 1000 more training rounds, per person, than does the wartime Army each year.
DHS claims they shoot every one of those training rounds, and that there is no stockpiling.
I find that hard to believe.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/26/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/
This article indicates DHS uses 1000 more training rounds, per person, than does the wartime Army each year.
DHS claims they shoot every one of those training rounds, and that there is no stockpiling.
I find that hard to believe.
YARDDOG(1)
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My area agencies shoot bi-annualy @ 60 rnd per 6 mounth ; )
Y/D
Y/D
DHS's credibility as an agency ranks right up there with BATFE.This article indicates DHS uses 1000 more training rounds, per person, than does the wartime Army each year.
DHS claims they shoot every one of those training rounds, and that there is no stockpiling.
I find that hard to believe.
My stepson is a Coastie. Runs small interdiction boats out of the Gulf of Mexico. They go through a fair amount of 7.62x51 and 5.56x45, and some .50 BMG, but very little pistol ammo.
Gaerek, I have friends who are current or former FBI, Secret Service, Customs, DEA... plus every branch of service.
173 per month would be high for any of those agencies.
It would not be high for HRT or similar, but it would be very high for all the rank and file. (As in 5 to 10 times the amount normally used.)
Oh, I wasn't arguing that point. You mentioned that it's possible that all Coasties train on firearms regularly, and I was just showing you some cases where they don't. I do know that things have changed since my Dad retired in 2000. For example, the 39 (of the original 42 ordered) Jayhawks (CG version of the Blackhawk) are ALL getting upgraded with weapons mounts for door guns, and armor to protect from small arms fire. And keep in mind, these helicopters are rescue helicopters, and were designed with that in mind.
Off topic a bit, my dad (helicopter mechanic) thinks it's a really dumb idea to add armor to a rescue helicopter. What makes the Jayhawk a great platform is the fact that it's fast and fuel efficient. You add several hundred pounds of armor to a helicopter that doesn't need it, and you affect it's speed, efficiency (esp. in Alaska, there are locations where they may only get 20-30 minutes on site before they hit bingo fuel), ability to lift/carry, and maneuverability. I'm sure there's some tin foil hatters that'll take this information and run to Alex Jones with it...
I do agree that 172 rounds per person per month seems high. However, I do know some local CBP agents who are basically able to hit the armory once or twice a month and pick up a few boxes of ammo. Once they do that, it's basically not tracked, and they can do what they want with it. In other words, these agents can pick up 200-300 rounds of high quality ammo, and do what they want with it. Very few shoot that much, and it ends up in their personal stockpile.
I think there needs to be a lot more accountability from these agencies on their ammo purchases. I do not believe they are gearing up to fight civilians, or any of that other tin foil hat stuff. I do also believe that they need a reasonable amount of ammo to train with, but compared to most LE agencies, 172 a month seems very high.
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Gaerek, on the helicopters, while I agree with your dad's take on the downside of armor in Alaska, I expect the reason is that it is easier for the Coast Guard to standardize their helicopter fleet, rather than having one configuration for Alaska and one for Key West.
Since many areas where the Coast Guard flies could involve getting shot at by drug runners, it would seem they are standardizing toward the high threat area, as opposed to the low-threat long-distance area.
But if you are correct about agents stockpiling their own ammo from government lots, that is a big deal - IE misappropriation of government property.
Edit: While I don't think they are gearing up to fight civilians, either, I do think that such huge purchase orders directly impact your and my ability to buy ammo. If the factory is using all its primers, and ordering more from outside sources, to make over 1B rounds of .40, well, that would have have an impact on my ability to order pistol primers.
Since many areas where the Coast Guard flies could involve getting shot at by drug runners, it would seem they are standardizing toward the high threat area, as opposed to the low-threat long-distance area.
But if you are correct about agents stockpiling their own ammo from government lots, that is a big deal - IE misappropriation of government property.
Edit: While I don't think they are gearing up to fight civilians, either, I do think that such huge purchase orders directly impact your and my ability to buy ammo. If the factory is using all its primers, and ordering more from outside sources, to make over 1B rounds of .40, well, that would have have an impact on my ability to order pistol primers.
Texshooter
New member
I don't really care if they are shooting or stockpiling, to a degree.
The Fed gov't has spent us into bankruptcy and they (all of them) have to cut back.
Could they, I am asking here, start to handload? Could they use more FATS training?
It would be better for the ammo makers to be selling that (and I have a feeling they could sell it all) to the civies at a higher price.
All that being said, any administration that would lie about Fast & Furious (incd. an American BPA being murdered) & about Benghazi is not above buying up ammo to dry up supply for us.
The Fed gov't has spent us into bankruptcy and they (all of them) have to cut back.
Could they, I am asking here, start to handload? Could they use more FATS training?
It would be better for the ammo makers to be selling that (and I have a feeling they could sell it all) to the civies at a higher price.
All that being said, any administration that would lie about Fast & Furious (incd. an American BPA being murdered) & about Benghazi is not above buying up ammo to dry up supply for us.
Come and take it.
New member
If they were planning on using the ammo for civil unrest I would have assumed they would be investing in rifle ammunition more.
Nonetheless I do suspect this is an effort to control how much ammo is on the market at any one time.
Of course my theory could get holes shot in it, but I am thinking the ammo makers have to keep a certain amount of ammo on hand in case the government asks for additional ammo. Thus the government doesn't actually buy all the ammo but the ammo maker has to have it on hand in case they decide to.
Still solidly the DHS definitely has definitely purchased several hundred million rounds since Sandy Hook.
Still the 22 ammo thing is absolutely insane. However such a crazy panic would take place is incredible. Considering that shotgun ammo hasn't been affected much at all (thank you Joe Biden). 22 ammo would be the last ammunition ever banned.
I watched a youtube video where a few of the hoarders got brave enough in the comments to brag about their stockpiles. One guy had 45,000 rounds, another boasted of his 10,000 round stockpile of 22 ammo. I can only hope they store it in a very good environment because 22 long rifle cartridges don't have the best airseal between the bullet and case.
Nonetheless I do suspect this is an effort to control how much ammo is on the market at any one time.
Of course my theory could get holes shot in it, but I am thinking the ammo makers have to keep a certain amount of ammo on hand in case the government asks for additional ammo. Thus the government doesn't actually buy all the ammo but the ammo maker has to have it on hand in case they decide to.
Still solidly the DHS definitely has definitely purchased several hundred million rounds since Sandy Hook.
Still the 22 ammo thing is absolutely insane. However such a crazy panic would take place is incredible. Considering that shotgun ammo hasn't been affected much at all (thank you Joe Biden). 22 ammo would be the last ammunition ever banned.
I watched a youtube video where a few of the hoarders got brave enough in the comments to brag about their stockpiles. One guy had 45,000 rounds, another boasted of his 10,000 round stockpile of 22 ammo. I can only hope they store it in a very good environment because 22 long rifle cartridges don't have the best airseal between the bullet and case.
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
If one does the math, using only the stats given in the article, 750M rounds at 60months at 72K officers = 173.666 rounds of practice ammo per month.
I was thinking more about this. Does the DHS buy ammunition and distribute it across all the agencies and LE districts across the nation? I would be completely okay with the federal gov't purchasing this amount of ammunition it it meant that the rest of the nation would be rationed from this purchased amount. However, it has always been my understanding that Federal agencies and state/city police do not share the same resources. If that is true, I feel like the amount of people that have access to this ammunition is far smaller.
Maybe wrong though, I do not know much about the structuring of DHS
They have training facilities that are used by most federal LE organizations. From what I can determine, trainees are issued ammo for training done at the facility. One report I saw indicated that over 90,000 federal LEOs from a large number (more than 50) different federal LE organizations were trained at DHS training facilities during a recent year.
In addition to that training, DHS has to provide issue ammo for their own agents, and, given the way the government works, it's likely that they're doing this buy, not just for the training they provide and for their own agents' issue ammo, but to do a bulk buy for other, perhaps virtually all, federal LE organizations which have ammunition needs.
In addition to that training, DHS has to provide issue ammo for their own agents, and, given the way the government works, it's likely that they're doing this buy, not just for the training they provide and for their own agents' issue ammo, but to do a bulk buy for other, perhaps virtually all, federal LE organizations which have ammunition needs.
I don't blame just them. But If I had to cook the way I have to reload I'd starve.
I got a ton of free bullets from Hornady- And I have to send in more forms to get even more- But the powder I have for my 230 grain bullets isn't on the 185 grain freebie list. I have powder and cases for .223, but no bullets or primers. I have powder for 230 grain, but can't find bullets. I have bullets, primers and cases for my 300 RUM, but no powder.
I checked out Walmart, and Cabelas recently. Cabelas had a crap ton of Herters .223 with a 5 box per person limit to make sure they KEPT a crap-ton(like a metric ton, but it stinks) for sale. Reloading component wise, you had it made if you shot .257 Roberts, or 25-06 etc.
Factory ammo in handgun was about a dozen boxes of 10MM, and a couple boxes of .327. These are not calibers DHS is buying. So it's not JUST their fault. Remember police orgs don't use very many calibers. We have been our own worst enemy just as much as they have helped us along.
I got a ton of free bullets from Hornady- And I have to send in more forms to get even more- But the powder I have for my 230 grain bullets isn't on the 185 grain freebie list. I have powder and cases for .223, but no bullets or primers. I have powder for 230 grain, but can't find bullets. I have bullets, primers and cases for my 300 RUM, but no powder.
I checked out Walmart, and Cabelas recently. Cabelas had a crap ton of Herters .223 with a 5 box per person limit to make sure they KEPT a crap-ton(like a metric ton, but it stinks) for sale. Reloading component wise, you had it made if you shot .257 Roberts, or 25-06 etc.
Factory ammo in handgun was about a dozen boxes of 10MM, and a couple boxes of .327. These are not calibers DHS is buying. So it's not JUST their fault. Remember police orgs don't use very many calibers. We have been our own worst enemy just as much as they have helped us along.
The federal law enforcement training center trains tens of thousands of state, tribal, local and foreign law enforcement officers.
http://www.fletc.gov/
The Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC) mission is “We train those who protect our homeland.” To carry out this mission, the FLETC serves as an interagency law enforcement training organization for 91 federal agencies or Partner Organizations. The FLETC also provides training to state, local, rural, tribal, territorial, and international law enforcement agencies.Although the FLETC trains officers and agents from all federal departments and all three branches of government, it is a component of the Department of Homeland Security.During FY 2012, almost 70,000 students received FLETC training. Since it was established in 1970, approximately 1,000,000 law enforcement officers and agents have been trained at FLETC.
http://www.fletc.gov/
Could they, I am asking here, start to handload?
They can't handload (usually- there may be some exemptions in the SWAT/HRT ranks for snipers) for the same reason we can't/shouldn't for our SD rounds. They want the studied ballistics and trace evidence benchmarks- If you shot at X feet, with Y gun, using Z ammunition, the powder will do 1, the bullet will do 2, and so on and so on.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
The embarrassing thing is this conspiracy continues with traction even after all these facts are brought to light. It isn't that much ammo. Maybe local PD only shoots 50 rounds a year, but that is entirely pathetic training and it needs to be upped, not federal reduced.
There is an unbelievable amount of armed agents in agencies you would never guess. Almost every agency has a SWAT team now to serve warrants in fraud cases in addition to the armed officers used to investigate. Since less than half of US military uses small arms, I would expect their per capita training ammo allotment to be much lower.
There is an unbelievable amount of armed agents in agencies you would never guess. Almost every agency has a SWAT team now to serve warrants in fraud cases in addition to the armed officers used to investigate. Since less than half of US military uses small arms, I would expect their per capita training ammo allotment to be much lower.
maestro pistolero
New member
Even if the bill is DOA, there is a benefit to shining the light on this issue. For a long time I was of the opinion that the current ammo shortage was strictly market driven. But when ammo isn't even arriving on the shelves so that people can hoard it, I think it's safe to assume there's much more going on.
What's interesting to me is the question of how long a billion-dollar market demand can go unmet in a free market. Perhaps we have an economist among us who could chime in and explain that one to me.
I guess this is what Obama meant by under the radar.
It sure seems like some entity would set up manufacturing to meet the demand.
What's interesting to me is the question of how long a billion-dollar market demand can go unmet in a free market. Perhaps we have an economist among us who could chime in and explain that one to me.
I guess this is what Obama meant by under the radar.
It sure seems like some entity would set up manufacturing to meet the demand.
This is something that should give each of us pause. Not making any assumptions, mind you, but if a SWAT team is needed to effect a simple fraud arrest, what sort of statement is being made?Almost every agency has a SWAT team now to serve warrants in fraud cases
Remington and Winchester have upped manufacturing and they've added extra shifts.It sure seems like some entity would set up manufacturing to meet the demand.
However, this is a temporary situation, and there's not much point to investing heavily in new machinery, production facilities, and payroll for a bubble that will burst in a few months.
I would posit that the large scale manufacture of commercial and mil-spec ammunition within a single factory is a far more complicated enterprise than most of us could possibly fathom, especially when the economics of it are factored into the equation. Therefore, it strikes me as quite simplistic to take two independent phenomena (ie big gummint order A and retail shortage in similar/same caliber(s) B) and fully understand the complex relationship (and, quite possibly, non-relationship) between the two. This is especially true since we simply do not know things like distributor and retail seller inventories, order patterns, historical backlog, current demand trends (though we know they are certainly at high levels), etc. And we have no idea how close these manufacturing plants are to manufacturing capacity, whether there are upstream supply chain issues, etc.
Economics is a complex enterprise, kids. Especially when one of the parties is the US government.
Economics is a complex enterprise, kids. Especially when one of the parties is the US government.
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