Am I doing something wrong here?

When learning rifle marksmanship, is it better to do it with a scope or iron sights?
Click to expand...

Iron sights develop marksmanship. They will highlight any mistakes you are making which is the reason advance marksmanship schools never start out on optics. Optics mask small errors that stand out when using irons. If you do not recognize your mistakes, you cannot fix the error.

The sniper’s use of iron sights serves mainly as a back-up system to his
optical sight. However, iron sights are an excellent means of training for the
sniper. The sniper is expected to be proficient in the use of iron sights before
he obtains formal sniper training and he must remain proficient.
Click to expand...

There is a reason you train on iron before glass.

http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM3-05.222(03).pdf
 
Great input so far, but a few quick thoughts from me:
-Parallax may be an issue at 25 yards. Not sure what scope you have or what the parallax setting is on it. Try at 50 yards and you may get the exact same group size.
-I see you said you've been looking into technique for precision shooting. Great idea, because practicing bad technique will only get you so far. You can't improve past a certain point no matter how much you practice if you are practicing bad technique.
-To answer your question about scope/iron sights, I think they are different skills and do not depend on the other. Some people will tell you should learn with iron sights as davidsog makes the argument for. There's validity to the argument. I learned to shoot on iron sights and the only rifle I have iron sights is the 22 I learned with. If the scope on my 22 breaks, the rifle will sit in my gun cabinet until I can replace the scope. I don't like shooting iron sights, so I don't. If you want to master both, that's your decision and doesn't matter one way or the other. Have fun as that's the whole point of shooting. Quality of your eye sight is also a big factor. I'm still in my 30s, but I've met plenty of people who were pretty gung-ho about iron sites that switched to scopes just because their eyesight deteriorated.
 
Last edited:
Thank you again for all of the advice and tips. I'm still using the stock Daisy 4x15 that came with the rifle, so no parallax adjustment. I too see arguments for both scopes and irons. For the mean time I do want to have a closer look at how my trigger finger impacts point of aim, so I will stick with scope for the time being. Once I stop experimenting with that and once we get deeper into the Spring time I'll generally take the scope off because I find it more reliable to use irons against a pest or even a couple soda cans.
 
My point about using the scope was that as someone new to this he will see the POA shifts as he pulls the trigger easier with a scope then with irons . Now i can shoot ok with irons but don’t shoot with them very often so maybe there better to see your POA shift do to poor trigger technique , id think a scope would be easier to see that . He did after all ask specifically about working on trigger pull .
 
It's beneficial for a novice shooter to learn how to shoot iron sights first. Then...if they want, they can graduate to a scope. I do like iron peep sights on some of my rifles, with my old eyes needing a diopter rear peep sight.

One of my favorite movies that spurred me to learn how to shoot is "Quigley Down Under."

"Aim small miss small" --- Shoot at small reactive targets. I like to shoot at a hung cowbell, at 50 & 100 yards with my air rifle. Any closer...I like to shoot at empty shotgun shell hulls, perched on top of a wooden carpenter horse. You'll get instant feedback with a reactive target, on whether you correctly cracked-off a shot or not.

A couple of tips I learned from master marksman - David Tubb, who has written books on marksmanship --- Try to use bone to bone contact with your stance, instead of muscle to muscle contact.

For a right hand shooter's offhand or standing position: If you keep placing your shots to the right of the target --- move your left foot to the left a little bit and vice versa.
____________________________________________________

If you do use a variable scope in the standing or offhand position...try to set it on the lowest power that you can accurately shoot with. Any high magnification will only exacerbate the wobble.

And breathe..if your vision starts to blur --- You're not breathing enough, with the blood not getting enough oxygen to the eyes. Don't hyperventilate, because you could pass out.
 
Last edited:
It's beneficial for a novice shooter to learn how to shoot iron sights first.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree on the whole but he's just working on trigger pull . You don't even need to shoot to work on that . Also if he's new and shooting every time , how by him self will he know if it was his trigger pull or something else that through off the shot .

Example . I was shooting one day and not well ( for me ) The guy next to me said make sure you don't pull the trigger until your sights are perfectly aligned with the target . Which I replied , I am or I would not have pulled the trigger . Clearly I wasn't but It sure seemed like I was to me .
 
Example . I was shooting one day and not well ( for me ) The guy next to me said make sure you don't pull the trigger until your sights are perfectly aligned with the target . Which I replied , I am or I would not have pulled the trigger . Clearly I wasn't but It sure seemed like I was to me .
Click to expand...

Which is why a coach is so helpful. Get your friends involved scout or find someone to go with you. They will see things you do not and vice versa.

It is a social sport.

You don't even need to shoot to work on that .
Click to expand...


Absolutely. Dime washer dry firing drills are extremely helpful in developing trigger skills.
 
Another reason to use iron sights is if you have "price point" equipment, it's relatively easy to see if iron sights are misaligned, loose, etc. A scope can have an internal problem that can't really be diagnosed easily from the outside.

Iron sights are harder to use and may not have the "cool gadget" factor of a scope, but when they fail or are having problems, it's a lot easier to detect it.

I would, at the least, try some shooting with the iron sights. You may find that you get better results immediately--that wouldn't surprise me at all since the scope you're using is a $14 item (give or take $3) and can't really be expected to be top quality at that kind of price.
 
Quality of the gun and quality of the ammo come first. If either of those aren’t up to the task, doesn’t matter how good the person behind the trigger is.
 
I’m working on some reactive targets nice. It’s nice to have. Better than having to walk down range or use binoculars to see where my shots landed. My groups are getting better but it’s still inconsistent. Sometimes I’ll have 1-2inxh groups and sometimes I’ll have 3-4 inch groups. It is nice to see a few tighter groups than I used to though
 
Keep at it. I still have good days and bad days. There are many, many things that can influence your shots. How much caffeine you've had, or not had can affect things....
 
The thing is whatever you are failing at you've been failing at for 3 years. That error becomes ingrained.

Biggest thing I see is failure to follow through. Take your shot and hold your sight picture for a 5 count after. Just like when I shoot my bow, I maintain my stance until the arrow hits the target. Real easy to let your brain get ahead of you.

Then there is the stance, it has to be natural. If you are twisting at all to get on target then you will release that tension as soon as you fire the shot. Don't think you can't move that rifle between the trigger break and the bullet leaving the barrel, you sure can. Plus muscles under tension are very unstable.
 
That may be true. After all the thread is asking if I'm doing something wrong :) I need to just keep experimenting with my position. Even on a table with the rifle in my hand, I find it difficult to hold the rifle still. That's disappointing considering it's a 3lb rifle... I had always heard that a lot went into marksmanship but it's really starting to hit me now. It really takes a lot of practice, practice, practice and patience to be proficient with a rifle. How do I know when it's no longer my shooting ability that's limiting my shooting, but the rifle's ability?
 
Even on a table with the rifle in my hand, I find it difficult to hold the rifle still. That's disappointing considering it's a 3lb rifle...
Click to expand...

Actually the heavier the rifle the easier it is to hold steady . Think of swinging an aluminum bat , now swing the same size solid steel bat . Which one will you be able to move/swing faster ? Same thing with a rifle If it's light , any slight twitch or movement by you will easily move the rifle . Now if it's heavy that same twitch or slight movement is much harder to move the heavier object .

I have a NM service rifle that weighs over 16lbs . This is a clone of a M-16 which normally weigh around 6 to 7lbs . I added lead to the stock to balance it out and make it easier to hold steady when shooting off hand standing .
 
Yeah I noticed that actually when I brought out my .22LR to look at and hold. It’s a lot more stable because it weighs twice as much as the air rifle. I think that’s all I need at the moment. At this point I just need to keep practicing. Thank you all so much for your advice, knowledge and tips. I will most likely be asking more questions on threads in the future as I’m sure I’ll run into more challenges as I keep shooting :)
 
When do you think you might be able to get to a range with your 22? I think you're going to surprise yourself when you do. It's going to be easier to shoot well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top