I did not inspect every case carefully before sizing - I though I was just truing the necks. I think it's significant that about one case out of five has a faint surface disturbance that might be the beginning of shoulder crush. I will know more once the rifle is up and running and I can size fired cases. I think the questionable cases will go in the row I'm planning for cast bullet loads around 1600 to 1800 fps.
Air dents as opposed to lube dents
- Thread starter condor bravo
- Start date
condor bravo
New member
higgite:
See my post #37 for something that comes close to what you are asking. But yes I can just deprime first without sizing and then size afterwards. I will do that to see if it changes anything. Cannot post a photo of the die since the tablet affair that I use does not seem to cooperate in doing that and will not work with photobucket. I haven't seen SAECO dies around for some time and this one is probably around 40 years old.
See my post #37 for something that comes close to what you are asking. But yes I can just deprime first without sizing and then size afterwards. I will do that to see if it changes anything. Cannot post a photo of the die since the tablet affair that I use does not seem to cooperate in doing that and will not work with photobucket. I haven't seen SAECO dies around for some time and this one is probably around 40 years old.
condor bravo
New member
higgite:
Per your suggestion, deprimed five Winchester cases prior to sizing and then resized afterwards, again raising the the cases rapidly into the die. There were no dents, obviously as the result of an escape route for the trapped air. So that is another solution, the other being to raise the cases slowly into the die. What we seem to have here are solutions to a situation where the cause of the situation may not be completely known. I continue to maintain that the light weight Winchester cases just succumb to the compressed air when there is no immediate escape route. There seems to be quite a bit of interest in this situation.
Per your suggestion, deprimed five Winchester cases prior to sizing and then resized afterwards, again raising the the cases rapidly into the die. There were no dents, obviously as the result of an escape route for the trapped air. So that is another solution, the other being to raise the cases slowly into the die. What we seem to have here are solutions to a situation where the cause of the situation may not be completely known. I continue to maintain that the light weight Winchester cases just succumb to the compressed air when there is no immediate escape route. There seems to be quite a bit of interest in this situation.
I was still having trouble with the idea he can trap enough air, but upon reflection, if there is no vent and the neck is long enough and it and the case body make good seals with the side of the die, it seems to me you actually could get 30 times the dent volume in air trapped, though it would be wanting to escape by bleeding out past the neck or body. Curious business, but at this point I am guessing that's why slowing down makes a difference; it allows positive bleed-off time. So I revoke my previous incredulity at the idea. I think CB probably diagnosed correctly.
I have given it it some thought; I guess if bullet hold is called neck tension air can get trapped between the top of the die and bottom of the die.
not. I know' the body of the die is sized first meaning there is no air trapped when the die starts to size the case body, but I have the luxury of disagreeing so I will choose to disagree.
I do not get into mortal combat with reloading nor do I reload when I am angry. Years ago I took lessons, one started with repeating over and over and over "I do not provoke". "I do not provoke" etc., etc..
F. Guffey
not. I know' the body of the die is sized first meaning there is no air trapped when the die starts to size the case body, but I have the luxury of disagreeing so I will choose to disagree.I do not get into mortal combat with reloading nor do I reload when I am angry. Years ago I took lessons, one started with repeating over and over and over "I do not provoke". "I do not provoke" etc., etc..
F. Guffey
condor bravo
New member
Thanks to all for participating. Slowing down the movement into the die makes all the difference and is the solution. If necessary it can be done in increments. Slowly size a small portion, back off momentarily, size another small portion, back off again and then size the remainder. Works 100% of the time.
condor bravo
New member
Yes the decapping pin can be turned down more and I've done that. The primer pops out even before the neck enters the neck section of the sizer, or so it seems. To go down even further the bottom of the expander button will be contacting the top of the primer pocket upon completion of the sizing stroke. However just ran out of Winchester cases for testing since I was working on 100 of them today. Will be at the range tomorrow but don't have any of the Winchesters completely loaded as of now. So all testing with the extended decapping pin was done with Federal brass but they have not been the problem so haven't arrived at any additional conclusion by using the Feds. There were no dents of course with the Feds. I'll get back as soon as I have some more Winchesters for sizing, possibly tomorrow. That should do the trick if the primer is ejected before sizing takes place and eliminate the necessity for slow sizing.
Trying to keep up; but it would seem if I was getting dents caused by pressure on the outside I would want to maintain the pressure on the inside. I do not like the ideal of burning up small drills making small holes in hard metal but I believe small holes in a die would not hurt the die. I doubt a reloader would feel the ‘whoosh’ of air escaping no matter how many trips the ram was making per minute.
F. Guffey
condor bravo
New member
higgite & Guffey
Early a.m. Tuesday, 2/23
I finished loading 10 rounds of the Winchesters to take out today. This session is primarily for checking some 8mm Rem mags. But stay tuned in and by 4:00 p Pacific time, I should have the resizing results posted for the extended decapping rod with the Winchesters. I have a positive feeling that this will work out as anticipated.
The idea behind ejecting the primer before sizing begins is that air outside the case is given an escape route via the open case neck and then outward through the displaced primer and theoretically eliminating the denting. We'll see if that is what happens.
Early a.m. Tuesday, 2/23
I finished loading 10 rounds of the Winchesters to take out today. This session is primarily for checking some 8mm Rem mags. But stay tuned in and by 4:00 p Pacific time, I should have the resizing results posted for the extended decapping rod with the Winchesters. I have a positive feeling that this will work out as anticipated.
The idea behind ejecting the primer before sizing begins is that air outside the case is given an escape route via the open case neck and then outward through the displaced primer and theoretically eliminating the denting. We'll see if that is what happens.
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condor bravo
New member
higgite, et al
Back from the range early with the sizing report:
Eureka higgite, you did it!!! You're a smarter man than I am; never would have thought to attempt to eject the primer before entering the sizing section of the die. With 10 additional rounds for a total of 20, feeding the fired cases rapidly into the die resulted in no sign of denting whatsoever with the 20 Winchester cases. Apparently the primer ejects right before the neck of the case enters the sizing section of the die, thereby leaving an escape route through the open neck for the air on the outside of the case. Everyone is invited over for a beer or favorite beverage!!
Back from the range early with the sizing report:
Eureka higgite, you did it!!! You're a smarter man than I am; never would have thought to attempt to eject the primer before entering the sizing section of the die. With 10 additional rounds for a total of 20, feeding the fired cases rapidly into the die resulted in no sign of denting whatsoever with the 20 Winchester cases. Apparently the primer ejects right before the neck of the case enters the sizing section of the die, thereby leaving an escape route through the open neck for the air on the outside of the case. Everyone is invited over for a beer or favorite beverage!!
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condor bravo
New member
Well it was certainly a good shot and it paid off. You have a double Shiner Bock coming. Surprising I guess that this SAECO die doesn't have a vent hole. And the Winchester brass now has an improved reputation, although I use an abundance of Winchesters for mag calibers with no complaints whatsoever.
'I know things about pigeons, Lily'
The quote above came at the end of a Clint Eastwood movie. I have never looked at a die in a press with a shell holder as being something that is complicated. And now; I must believe there are dies shell holders I have never seen before. There is no seal at the bottom of the die between the case and shell holder. All of my shell holders have slots; slots make it possible to slide the case into the shell holder.
When sizing a case the atmosphere in the die is displaced by the case. Again, if I was concerned about crushing ‘anything’ from the outside I would not want to drop the pressure inside.
F. Guffey
The quote above came at the end of a Clint Eastwood movie. I have never looked at a die in a press with a shell holder as being something that is complicated. And now; I must believe there are dies shell holders I have never seen before. There is no seal at the bottom of the die between the case and shell holder. All of my shell holders have slots; slots make it possible to slide the case into the shell holder.
When sizing a case the atmosphere in the die is displaced by the case. Again, if I was concerned about crushing ‘anything’ from the outside I would not want to drop the pressure inside.
F. Guffey
condor bravo
New member
Guffey:
But by allowing the outside air to escape, it does not build up the outside pressure which then more or less is equal to the inside pressure.
But by allowing the outside air to escape, it does not build up the outside pressure which then more or less is equal to the inside pressure.
condor: you stated in post #17 that you apply the lube to the lower half of the case before sizing.
In effect, you are creating a seal from the lower half down with the lube.
I assume you do this to prevent shoulder denting from excess lube.
I have a strong thought that if you apply the lube very slightly from just below the shoulder down, this may prevent the problem of case denting.
I also realize by adjusting the pin to deprime early has eliminated the problem, but if you lube all your calibers the same way (assuming that you handload for more than one), then you will see the problem of creasing again most likely.
In effect, you are creating a seal from the lower half down with the lube.
I assume you do this to prevent shoulder denting from excess lube.
I have a strong thought that if you apply the lube very slightly from just below the shoulder down, this may prevent the problem of case denting.
I also realize by adjusting the pin to deprime early has eliminated the problem, but if you lube all your calibers the same way (assuming that you handload for more than one), then you will see the problem of creasing again most likely.
I never aspored to be a yes man
I have no reservations about taking something apart to see how it works or does not work. There is no way I can seal off the case, die and shell holder. Punching the primer has absolutely no effect on pressure outside or outside of the case.
The premise is pressure is escaping from between the die and case, out the bottom of the die and then up through the primer pocket/flash hole and out the top of the case. If there was a restriction to air flow I would think it would be in the top of the die, seems if air could escape through the inside of the die it would have to work its way through the screw threads and jam nut etc.
I would not consider the problem is caused by a vacuum as when lowering the ram on a case that is sealed in the die with a slight coating of lube;especially when we are dealing with something that does not have flat sides but is round.
I have no reservations about taking something apart to see how it works or does not work. There is no way I can seal off the case, die and shell holder. Punching the primer has absolutely no effect on pressure outside or outside of the case.
The premise is pressure is escaping from between the die and case, out the bottom of the die and then up through the primer pocket/flash hole and out the top of the case. If there was a restriction to air flow I would think it would be in the top of the die, seems if air could escape through the inside of the die it would have to work its way through the screw threads and jam nut etc.
I would not consider the problem is caused by a vacuum as when lowering the ram on a case that is sealed in the die with a slight coating of lube;especially when we are dealing with something that does not have flat sides but is round.
condor bravo
New member
Dufus:
Yes I just apply minimum lube to the very bottom of the cases and perhaps you are correct about applying the lube higher up. Doing so often results in the lube creeping upwards and causing the lube dents. So I just keep the lubing very low on the cases. Actually I load for 80 some center fire rifles, mostly 700 Remingtons (not all different calibers of course), and the situation with the .308 Winchester brass and the SAECO sizing die is the first of its kind. So I decided to post that and it turned out to be rather interesting with a pretty good following. Thanks for the input.
Yes I just apply minimum lube to the very bottom of the cases and perhaps you are correct about applying the lube higher up. Doing so often results in the lube creeping upwards and causing the lube dents. So I just keep the lubing very low on the cases. Actually I load for 80 some center fire rifles, mostly 700 Remingtons (not all different calibers of course), and the situation with the .308 Winchester brass and the SAECO sizing die is the first of its kind. So I decided to post that and it turned out to be rather interesting with a pretty good following. Thanks for the input.