Air dents as opposed to lube dents
- Thread starter condor bravo
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reynolds357
New member
I guess I am a dinosaur, I still use Redding wax.
There is a collector, shooter, reloader and builder of period correct military rifles in Arlington, TX. that has a hydraulic reloading press. When comparing the press to know and understood presses I would call it a trip hammer. Applying slow and steady rather than rapidly pressure is not an option.
I have turned cases into bellows looking accordions. I had no need for bellows and or according cases but I did an experiment. It was more about ‘when to anneal’ and or it was necessary. The whole point was if I could turn a case into a bellows without splitting/crushing the case could not be too work hardened. It was about that time I decided a reloader could not bump the shoulder’ without case body support. Rational; I literally moved the shoulder back .150” and in the process turned the case body into an accordion.
I do find it most difficult to move the shoulder back; most reloaders describe moving the shoulder back as bumping. I would call it wrecking; when I literally move the shoulder back I create bellows in the case. I would call that wrecking not bumping.
F. Guffey
condor bravo said:
Or perhaps because there is no vent hole in the die. You may in fact be compressing air faster than it can escape from the die? Are the cases difficult to extract from the die, as if pulling against a vacuum?
As for the denting problem being isolated to Winchester brass, have you cut one open and measured wall thickness all around? Compared to other brass?
I may have missed it, but I don't see where you have said if the brass in question is new or not? Does the Winchester brass have the same history as the other brass?
Greg Mercurio
New member
Slamfire: You've gone and done it. You've tested the deadly "case head thrust" urban legend. By all accounts, with that much lube, you should have launched that bolt backwards or blown up your donor rifle at least a dozen times.
I don't know how much this will help but I have a solution.
I had a Hornady New Dimension Custom Grade seating die that used a screw adjustment with a hole in it for setting bullet depth. The sliding bullet seating guide stem would not drop back down except very, very slowly after I added a micrometer depth setting stem. It had no pressure equalizing vent. It seemed to be a tolerance thing as my other micrometer seating die was fine.
I checked the setup out, located a suitable spot where I'd be doing no harm & carefully drilled a 1/16" hole into the top of the die to allow air to flow into the partial vacuum (God, I HATE that term) created when the sleeve tried to drop & bingo! Fixed.
Perhaps you could "raise the bridge rather than lowering the ocean" the same way?
I had a Hornady New Dimension Custom Grade seating die that used a screw adjustment with a hole in it for setting bullet depth. The sliding bullet seating guide stem would not drop back down except very, very slowly after I added a micrometer depth setting stem. It had no pressure equalizing vent. It seemed to be a tolerance thing as my other micrometer seating die was fine.
I checked the setup out, located a suitable spot where I'd be doing no harm & carefully drilled a 1/16" hole into the top of the die to allow air to flow into the partial vacuum (God, I HATE that term) created when the sleeve tried to drop & bingo! Fixed.
Perhaps you could "raise the bridge rather than lowering the ocean" the same way?
It is not entirely an urban legend, it is more of a misdirection, designed to misdirect Army failure away from themselves. You see when it comes to fault, the Army is not a truth seeking organization, it is an excuse seeking organization.
Now if they could convince you that oil and not incompetence caused their run away killer blimp last year, and you accepted the idea that oil or grease in the air caused the killer blimp rampage, they would have created a "Get out of Jail" card for themselves and would have been very proud of themselves for escaping the consequences of their incompetence. Of course you are not so stupid to believe that greasy clouds or oily air caused the blimp to drift off, downing power lines, scaring livestock, and disrupting the country side. You are not so stupid because you have never heard of grease clouds, or oily wind, and have never seen it. And it turns out, someone forgot to put batteries in the auto deflation device, so when the blimp broke loose, it did not deflate because the safety device was off line. OOPS!
Missing batteries among issues that caused Army's runaway blimp
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-runaway-missile-defense-blimp-20160214-story.html
But when it comes to something that only few people know, primarily Mechanical Engineers, that is how structures are designed and built, the Army can concoct a very plausible sounding story that excuses them of all blame. The Army built over 1,000,000 M1903's that were so defective, that in 1927 an Army board recommended scrapping all of them. However, they were kept in service. These rifles were structurally defective because anywhere heat was applied, the only measuring device was human eyeballs. Instead of supplying workers with temperature gages, the Army went the cheap route and had the workers evaluating temperature by eyeball. Human eyeballs were not precise enough to maintain temperature tolerances and thusly, receivers were over heated, burning the metal. The end result was that all of the receivers are suspect, and Army data showed that 33% of these receivers were so structurally deficient they would break in overpressure situations. We know many of these receivers broke at loads far less than their design limits.
Firearms are designed to carry a load. You can calculate load by multiplying pounds per square inch times the cartridge surface area in square inches. What falls out is pounds. Rifle chambers carry more load than the bolt or the receiver seats as the surface area of the cartridge is greater in the chamber than the portion against the bolt. Based on my calculations, bolt thrust for the 223 Remington should be around 6,833 lbf. It is very easy to do, measure the maximum OD of the case, multiply that by the Maximum Acceptable Pressure, and that is your bolt thrust. It is a maximum number as it does not assume any reduction in load due to case and chamber friction. A properly designed firearm will carry the complete load of a cartridge through its service life. If you notice, there are all sorts of pressure limits for firearms, and these pressure limits directly translate into load limits if you calculate the surface area of the cartridge. This is why pressure limits are in these load manuals, pressures must be tailored to the load limits of the firearms that use those cartridges. Exceed pressures and you are exceeding the loads at which these firearms were designed to carry.
But the Army knew that very few shooters have enough of a back ground to understand mechanical design theory or load. So they were able to convince the shooting public that the problems with M1903's shattering were not due to defectively made rifles, but with a user practice: greased bullets. The Army claimed that greased bullets dangerously raised pressures and bolt thrust. Because the shooting public trusts the authority of the Army, believes the Army is an honest organization that would never, ever, ever, tell a lie, the public believes this explanation. And this is the basis for the myth that greased or oil chambers dangerously increase bolt thrust.
The primary cause of dangerous pressures, and thus dangerous bolt thrust, is too much powder in the case. Someone overcharging the case is the primary cause of blowups. (there are a number of ways to blow a firearm, but this is the easiest and most common) If cartridges are loaded to less than or equal to SAAMI pressure specifications, and the action is not defective, the action can carry the load, regardless of whether the case is lubricated or not. If pressures are increased above design limits, which I assume are the SAAMI pressure limits, then the action will be over stressed, the barrel will be over stretched, dry cases or wet cases.
But this requires knowledge and reasoning ability, something that we have seen lacking in this thread at least by one poster. So, considering how ignorant and trusting the shooting population is, it is easy to understand how the Army fooled so many of us.
condor bravo
New member
Continuing with the saga of the mystery dents:
Started the session by again cleaning the die. There is absolutely no residue in the die and continued sizing by applying a light coat of RCBS lube 2 to the bottom half inch of the cases. By raising the cases slowly into the die, there was no denting on any case, but by raising the cases rapidly as I had been doing it, again three out of four cases with the tear drop shaped dents. Again with the Winchester brass. There is nothing in the die to cause the denting except air and I maintain that the air is the culprit. It seems by raising the cases slowly into the die allows the air to escape even though a vent hole is not within the die.
Started the session by again cleaning the die. There is absolutely no residue in the die and continued sizing by applying a light coat of RCBS lube 2 to the bottom half inch of the cases. By raising the cases slowly into the die, there was no denting on any case, but by raising the cases rapidly as I had been doing it, again three out of four cases with the tear drop shaped dents. Again with the Winchester brass. There is nothing in the die to cause the denting except air and I maintain that the air is the culprit. It seems by raising the cases slowly into the die allows the air to escape even though a vent hole is not within the die.
condor bravo
New member
In response to higgite's post #25:
All cases started out as either new brass or new factory rounds and nothing really different about the Winchester cases. None have been loaded more than two to four times. No it is not difficult to withdraw the cases after sizing. All have been fired in the same rifle, a Rem 700. The chamber is somewhat tight, requiring slight shoulder set-back for proper chambering. As noted in my previous post, slowly raising the cases into the die allows the air, as I claim, to escape by another route. At least there is a solution whether we all agree as to the cause of the mystery dents.
All cases started out as either new brass or new factory rounds and nothing really different about the Winchester cases. None have been loaded more than two to four times. No it is not difficult to withdraw the cases after sizing. All have been fired in the same rifle, a Rem 700. The chamber is somewhat tight, requiring slight shoulder set-back for proper chambering. As noted in my previous post, slowly raising the cases into the die allows the air, as I claim, to escape by another route. At least there is a solution whether we all agree as to the cause of the mystery dents.
condor bravo
New member
higgite:
That's OK, you're forgiven for the brain lapse; I might have said much the same thing. But all responses to this unusual situation are appreciated. Maybe the only thing I can say for sure is that the dents are not caused by case lube. Air has to be the culprit and raising the case slowly into the sizing die is the solution, allowing the air to bleed off before denting occurs.
That's OK, you're forgiven for the brain lapse; I might have said much the same thing. But all responses to this unusual situation are appreciated. Maybe the only thing I can say for sure is that the dents are not caused by case lube. Air has to be the culprit and raising the case slowly into the sizing die is the solution, allowing the air to bleed off before denting occurs.
Greg Mercurio
New member
Slamfire: NASA and Morton Thiokol did the same kind of CYA with the Challenger disaster. The truth will never be published but those who worked in the industry know the actual failure mechanism and it doesn't match well with the narrative.
NASA employees don't want to talk about it. It is a very sore topic. I suppose you have found, the more you work with Government, the more you find that it follows three rules:
Rule #1: Maximize Corporate profits.
Rule #2: Minimize scandal
Rule #3: Take the path of least resistance.
For such a simple set of rules, it turns out this is an amazingly robust model of behavior for Government and their Contractors. Instead of admitting incompetence they will lie, lie, lie. You have to know as much as they do to be able to peel back the inconsistencies and pseudo science to figure out something is wrong with their root cause analyses.
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I have been following this thread and really apreciate the responses. Main reason is I have had the same exact problem myself exept it was with .223, It deffinetly was not dents caused by lube. Fortunately my problem went away and I just assumed air was causing the problem but after some of this discussion, not so sure now.
Condor Bravo,
Given that it only happens with Winchester cases, I am starting to suspect a flaw; brass too thin on one side. You might want to section one through the dent.
Have you tried decapping before sizing and removing your decapper to see if giving the air an escape route makes a difference? Given the normal pressure needed to deform a case, I'm still more inclined to think something like rapid sizing letting the case grab the die and start buckling behind the grabbed shoulder edge, or some other, stronger mechanical thing is going on. Try lubing the corner of the shoulder lightly to prevent grabbing and see if that makes a difference?
Given that it only happens with Winchester cases, I am starting to suspect a flaw; brass too thin on one side. You might want to section one through the dent.
Have you tried decapping before sizing and removing your decapper to see if giving the air an escape route makes a difference? Given the normal pressure needed to deform a case, I'm still more inclined to think something like rapid sizing letting the case grab the die and start buckling behind the grabbed shoulder edge, or some other, stronger mechanical thing is going on. Try lubing the corner of the shoulder lightly to prevent grabbing and see if that makes a difference?
condor bravo
New member
Reply to U'Nick post 36:
First a weight review of the various cases being used. Only one each with spent primer attached was weighed. From lightest to heaviest:
Winchester 159 gr
Norma 168.5
Lapua 178
Federal. 181.5
CBC. 188
PMC. 194
Remington fired case not available. So the Winchesters are the lightest as expected.
Using Winchester cases and starting with cleaned die and rapidly raising the cases into the die.
Removed decapping stem completely--five cases without dents
Replaced decapping stem--same five cases as above, no dents
Decapping stem in place--lightly lubed around shoulder to prevent "grabbing", four additional cases had no dents but one did. Probably should have tested more like those.
For the final ten cases, with decapping stem in place, sized like I have been doing and again four out of five cases dented.
As previously mentioned, all sizing was done by rapidly raising the cases into the die. Lube was applied to half inch above base of the cases for sizing purposes.
So it appears that light shoulder lubing could have some merit, along with sizing the cases slowly as previously pointed out which so far seems to be 100% effective.
First a weight review of the various cases being used. Only one each with spent primer attached was weighed. From lightest to heaviest:
Winchester 159 gr
Norma 168.5
Lapua 178
Federal. 181.5
CBC. 188
PMC. 194
Remington fired case not available. So the Winchesters are the lightest as expected.
Using Winchester cases and starting with cleaned die and rapidly raising the cases into the die.
Removed decapping stem completely--five cases without dents
Replaced decapping stem--same five cases as above, no dents
Decapping stem in place--lightly lubed around shoulder to prevent "grabbing", four additional cases had no dents but one did. Probably should have tested more like those.
For the final ten cases, with decapping stem in place, sized like I have been doing and again four out of five cases dented.
As previously mentioned, all sizing was done by rapidly raising the cases into the die. Lube was applied to half inch above base of the cases for sizing purposes.
So it appears that light shoulder lubing could have some merit, along with sizing the cases slowly as previously pointed out which so far seems to be 100% effective.
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The long-awaited photo of my "crease" can now be viewed, but I don't think it matters anymore - I probably crushed the shoulder. Close inspection of the other cases reveals a wavy or wrinkled area on a few, too faint to be photoed. There is daylight between the die and shellholder, but only about .012. The shellholder is #6, which I think makes it a Redding (416 Ruger uses a standard .532 base like any other magnum rifle). I probably shouldn't have been fooling with the cases since I don't have my barrel yet, but I just had to get my hands on them.
Interesting to read about High Command mendacity to protect military services. For a particularity sad and depressing example, research the 1989 turret explosion on the battleship Iowa. This is also a cautionary tale for reloaders who can't stop experimenting.
Interesting to read about High Command mendacity to protect military services. For a particularity sad and depressing example, research the 1989 turret explosion on the battleship Iowa. This is also a cautionary tale for reloaders who can't stop experimenting.
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condor bravo
New member
Interesting shape; it does not appear to be a typical crease from a manufacturing defect, but a dent perhaps from manufacturing, and still a little odd for a lube dent. Did you say you only have one like that? Did it come that way or after sizing? It is fairly common to get defects with bulk packaging.
condor,
Here again, if you have already stated so and I missed it, I apologize, but have you tried decapping any fired cases prior to resizing them, with and/or without the decapping/expander in place??
You said the die in question is a SAECO? I'm not familiar with SAECO, so I tried googling it. The only SAECO sizing dies that came up were bullet sizing dies, nothing for case sizing. Can you post a link to the die that you have and/or post a pic of it?
Here again, if you have already stated so and I missed it, I apologize, but have you tried decapping any fired cases prior to resizing them, with and/or without the decapping/expander in place??
You said the die in question is a SAECO? I'm not familiar with SAECO, so I tried googling it. The only SAECO sizing dies that came up were bullet sizing dies, nothing for case sizing. Can you post a link to the die that you have and/or post a pic of it?