Aiming: One Eye or Two?
- Thread starter gvf
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While there is not only one way, there is certainly a best way. All of the top shooters in the world use the same basic technique. Why? Because it works - for everyone. Unless you have a physical limitation like arthritis, etc..
People are not that different. What makes the difference in shooting is more mental than physical. We are socialized to believe that we are all "unique" and special. But, what makes us that way is personality, not physiology. The vast majority of people are all the same.
I am quite uncomfortable with claims like: "that works for them, but it won't for me". That is just an excuse. Many people don't really want to learn how to shoot well. Many create reasons not to succeed rather than to succeed. Others listen to their favorite writer (who is a writer, not a champion shooter) who may have his/her own agenda or bias and buys their story hook line and sinker. Either way, the outcome is the same.
2% of the shooters outshoot the other 98%. They all use the same basic technique. That should tell you something.
Lurper ~
You have continually asserted that anyone can be taught to shoot with both eyes open. If this were true, and if it were also true -- as you assert -- that there is only One Best Way to shoot -- then every single one of these top 2%'ers would be shooting with both eyes open, without the crutch of using tape. Obviously, they have not all had the benefit of your expertise!
It's particularly amusing that you have claimed that you have never met a shooter who couldn't be taught to shoot with both eyes open, but then opined that anyone who has obtained the training but still cannot shoot with both eyes open just "doesn't want to shoot well." It's pretty apparent that your preconceived notions have prevented you from being able to see the shooters who really-and-truly were not wired to do it your way. Those lazy bums!
Meanwhile, I continue to believe that human beings differ one from another. Roughly 15% of the population is strongly left-handed. Rather than fighting against these folks' inbuilt wiring, I'll help them find ways to work with their wiring to run the guns they've got in the most efficient manner possible. Even though left-handedness can be a handicap in running some types of firearms, I won't force those folks to be right-handed simply to fit my preconceived notion of the "right" way to do things. I'll work with the wiring they've got, not with what I wish they had.
Similarly, some small percentage of the population simply does not have a dominant eye, and are incapable of being trained to favor one over the other well enough to allow accurate, rapid sight acquisition with both eyes open under stress. Rather than fighting against these folks' inbuilt wiring, I'll help them find ways to work with their wiring to obtain fast, accurate hits while minimizing their handicap.
By the way -- for those six people still reading the thread with halfway-open minds
-- it's important to note that both the one-eye and the two-eye shooters are equally prone to tunnelling in on the target, and both need to train themselves to break out of the tunnel at the earliest opportunity. Just because you shoot with both eyes open does not mean you are immune to the effects of tunnel vision.
pax
You have continually asserted that anyone can be taught to shoot with both eyes open. If this were true, and if it were also true -- as you assert -- that there is only One Best Way to shoot -- then every single one of these top 2%'ers would be shooting with both eyes open, without the crutch of using tape. Obviously, they have not all had the benefit of your expertise!
It's particularly amusing that you have claimed that you have never met a shooter who couldn't be taught to shoot with both eyes open, but then opined that anyone who has obtained the training but still cannot shoot with both eyes open just "doesn't want to shoot well." It's pretty apparent that your preconceived notions have prevented you from being able to see the shooters who really-and-truly were not wired to do it your way. Those lazy bums!
Meanwhile, I continue to believe that human beings differ one from another. Roughly 15% of the population is strongly left-handed. Rather than fighting against these folks' inbuilt wiring, I'll help them find ways to work with their wiring to run the guns they've got in the most efficient manner possible. Even though left-handedness can be a handicap in running some types of firearms, I won't force those folks to be right-handed simply to fit my preconceived notion of the "right" way to do things. I'll work with the wiring they've got, not with what I wish they had.
Similarly, some small percentage of the population simply does not have a dominant eye, and are incapable of being trained to favor one over the other well enough to allow accurate, rapid sight acquisition with both eyes open under stress. Rather than fighting against these folks' inbuilt wiring, I'll help them find ways to work with their wiring to obtain fast, accurate hits while minimizing their handicap.
By the way -- for those six people still reading the thread with halfway-open minds
-- it's important to note that both the one-eye and the two-eye shooters are equally prone to tunnelling in on the target, and both need to train themselves to break out of the tunnel at the earliest opportunity. Just because you shoot with both eyes open does not mean you are immune to the effects of tunnel vision.pax
Actually, they have and I have had the benefit of theirs since I was one of them. There is a big difference between being left handed and shooting with both eyes open. It has nothing to do with wiring. It is physically impossible to draw a line from an object to your finger and to both eyes. You will favor one eye. I have taught plenty of cross dominant shooters to shoot with both eyes open without a problem.
As far as the tape goes, if what you assert was true, those who use the tape would not be able to shoot without it. They can just as well and they do all shoot with both eyes open.
I never asserted that anyone who obtained the training but cannot shoot with both eyes doesn't want to. I asserted that I have never met anyone who could not be trained to shoot with both eyes. I stand by that assertion.
What I did assert with that statement is that people make excuses for not excelling at certain things for myriad reasons. That is psychology, not laziness.
As far as the tape goes, if what you assert was true, those who use the tape would not be able to shoot without it. They can just as well and they do all shoot with both eyes open.
I never asserted that anyone who obtained the training but cannot shoot with both eyes doesn't want to. I asserted that I have never met anyone who could not be trained to shoot with both eyes. I stand by that assertion.
What I did assert with that statement is that people make excuses for not excelling at certain things for myriad reasons. That is psychology, not laziness.
Well, I have a question. I read (earlier in this thread, I believe, it was yesterday when I read it) the way to find your dominant eye is to close one eye, then the other, and where ever your hand is when you open them both, then that's your dominant eye (I didn't explain it very well, but anyway) I see two fingers pointing, I can use one eye or the other to focus in on it, making it move, but with my eyes open I can't see JUST ONE finger, when i only have one up. There is a dominant one in the middle, but there is a see-through image to the right or left, whichever I choose to focus with, and I can't seem to focus with both/ or not focus with either.. I tried shooting last night, and it was the same case with my sights. Is this what you all are talking about, and I just need more training, or what? I can't figure out which eye is dominant, because they can both take over, I can focus either one.
Phew. You two are wearing me out.
One of the damnable qualities of being a Gemini, I suppose. "Good point Pax. Oh yeah, that makes sense Lurper."
Up in the grey loft, I have this tiny voice that keeps reading this thread and announcing it to my mind's ears like a tennis match. 15-love. 30-love. 30-15. 30-30.
You guys are making some great points. But I can't come down on one side or the other on this debate. Perhaps I'll take a new approach - both eyes closed?
One of the damnable qualities of being a Gemini, I suppose. "Good point Pax. Oh yeah, that makes sense Lurper."
Up in the grey loft, I have this tiny voice that keeps reading this thread and announcing it to my mind's ears like a tennis match. 15-love. 30-love. 30-15. 30-30.
You guys are making some great points. But I can't come down on one side or the other on this debate. Perhaps I'll take a new approach - both eyes closed?
How many of these shooters do you know and have you discussed it with at length? Again, they can shoot just as well without the tape as with it. Contrary to what you may think, closing one eye requires that you engage your concious mind. You cannot perform at peak levels unless you remove your conscious mind from the process. The tape is a heuristic.
Accepting that you can only shoot accurately if you close one eye creates a self-imposed limitation. Until you can let go of that limitation, you are bound by it. It is a limitation imposed by your mind, not your eyes. The way to break the limitation is to train.
As I mentioned earlier, in reality the level of precision necessary for civilians in SD situations is not that high. Hitting an 8" plate at 25 feet is good enough. A half blind monkey could be trained to do that with one eye or two.
Accepting that you can only shoot accurately if you close one eye creates a self-imposed limitation. Until you can let go of that limitation, you are bound by it. It is a limitation imposed by your mind, not your eyes. The way to break the limitation is to train.
As I mentioned earlier, in reality the level of precision necessary for civilians in SD situations is not that high. Hitting an 8" plate at 25 feet is good enough. A half blind monkey could be trained to do that with one eye or two.
Well Lurper, here's your chance 
Here is my situation...
I am in a Chapman Stance (my most natural position).
I am shooting a Beretta 92FS right-handed.
Target is 25 feet away.
I have the front site focused.
Here is what I see:
Target - Two targets, both equally sharp a large distance between them. The left target is slightly lower than the right target.
Front sight - Sharp and clear. Only one.
Rear sight - Two rear sights, both equally sharp a small distance between them. The left rear sight is again slightly lower than the right target.
What do I do?
Thanks!
Greg
Here is my situation...
I am in a Chapman Stance (my most natural position).
I am shooting a Beretta 92FS right-handed.
Target is 25 feet away.
I have the front site focused.
Here is what I see:
Target - Two targets, both equally sharp a large distance between them. The left target is slightly lower than the right target.
Front sight - Sharp and clear. Only one.
Rear sight - Two rear sights, both equally sharp a small distance between them. The left rear sight is again slightly lower than the right target.
What do I do?
Thanks!
Greg
To JDM357 or "Non-Dominant" Eyes
Try the other tests on this thread - or also ask yourself: when shooting with one eye, which one is it? That's likely the dominant eye - least if it's accurate. If you alternate, which gives you better accuracy or feels easier to use? Another hint to find the dominant eye.
Try the other tests on this thread - or also ask yourself: when shooting with one eye, which one is it? That's likely the dominant eye - least if it's accurate. If you alternate, which gives you better accuracy or feels easier to use? Another hint to find the dominant eye.
Gregma
Since this is just about the eyes, I won't go into the deficiencies of the Chapman stance.
Try this first: Aim your pistol at the target with your strong hand. Focus on the front sight. Cover your weak hand eye with your weak hand without changing your stance. Where is the sight relative to the target? Without moving the gun, cover your strong hand eye with your weak hand. Where is the sight now? The sights will be on the target with one eye. That is the eye you want to start working with.
Let me know how that works. This may be a long laborious process via a forum, but doesn't take long in person on the range.
Since this is just about the eyes, I won't go into the deficiencies of the Chapman stance.
Try this first: Aim your pistol at the target with your strong hand. Focus on the front sight. Cover your weak hand eye with your weak hand without changing your stance. Where is the sight relative to the target? Without moving the gun, cover your strong hand eye with your weak hand. Where is the sight now? The sights will be on the target with one eye. That is the eye you want to start working with.
Let me know how that works. This may be a long laborious process via a forum, but doesn't take long in person on the range.
I just can't stay away from this one
Greg,
Pick one and shoot at it. Even if you had absolutely no domination between one eye to the other, you will be right-on on one of the targets you see. Then cover your eyes one at a time. The eye that sees the correct image that was hit from the double image is the more dominant eye. You will be on target with one, so it doesnt really matter. The one which had the POI that was different than POA is the ghost. Don't shoot at that one. Boy, it's tough to explain in a forum. I don't have the experience training others that Lurper does either.
Basicly if you shoot when one is lined up with your sights and POI is = to POA, the other image is the ghost. If POI is different than POA, that one is the ghost, align to the other image.
Pax,
The tape on the target shooters glasses not only helps fatigue, because they may be shooting a lot of rounds at CRAZY long distances for a long time that day, it also will help with the supreme amount of accuracy needed to win such a competition. Do you think they would really be a "bad" shot without the tape, or just an unbelievably amazing shot with it? I bet most would outshoot me without the tape if I was shooting at half the distance they were. And I shoot well. Do you think they will not be able to quickly and accurately defend themselves with both eyes open in a SD encounter?
Also, it was said that anyone can be trained to learn to do this. This is completely true, either by recognizing the correct eye dominance, eliminating ghost images as targets, or indexing in a "kentucky windage" fashion (know where it will hit by the pattern of hits in practice vs what you see). There is a way to understand POI relative to POA for any shooter who truely wants to learn. Not even making the attempt to learn to do it right, just saying "well I just can't", is indeed nothing but giving up, a bad excuse, and/or laziness.
I agree with the statement that a plate at 25' is all the accuracy needed. This is also common in training. You don't need to make a perfect head shot on a fast draw, he-who-fires-first-wins; just be able to place a reasonably accurate series of rounds COM. And be ready to move. Fast.
As far as being equally prone to tunnelling in on the target, it's also about periphrial(sp?) vision. Being able to see someone from your closed-eye side running into your sight picture. Being able to move while shooting without taking your eyes off your front sight. Being MORE ABLE TO PROPERLY DEFEND YOURSELF. I don't understand why you are taking such issue with this.
EasyG,
This statement makes me think of my grandma telling me to rub butter on a burn.
Maybe there isn't a blanket black and white on this. But there is a best way. When it comes to being able to defend onesself, why would any way but the best way be enough?
Greg,
Pick one and shoot at it. Even if you had absolutely no domination between one eye to the other, you will be right-on on one of the targets you see. Then cover your eyes one at a time. The eye that sees the correct image that was hit from the double image is the more dominant eye. You will be on target with one, so it doesnt really matter. The one which had the POI that was different than POA is the ghost. Don't shoot at that one. Boy, it's tough to explain in a forum. I don't have the experience training others that Lurper does either.
Basicly if you shoot when one is lined up with your sights and POI is = to POA, the other image is the ghost. If POI is different than POA, that one is the ghost, align to the other image.
Pax,
The tape on the target shooters glasses not only helps fatigue, because they may be shooting a lot of rounds at CRAZY long distances for a long time that day, it also will help with the supreme amount of accuracy needed to win such a competition. Do you think they would really be a "bad" shot without the tape, or just an unbelievably amazing shot with it? I bet most would outshoot me without the tape if I was shooting at half the distance they were. And I shoot well. Do you think they will not be able to quickly and accurately defend themselves with both eyes open in a SD encounter?
Also, it was said that anyone can be trained to learn to do this. This is completely true, either by recognizing the correct eye dominance, eliminating ghost images as targets, or indexing in a "kentucky windage" fashion (know where it will hit by the pattern of hits in practice vs what you see). There is a way to understand POI relative to POA for any shooter who truely wants to learn. Not even making the attempt to learn to do it right, just saying "well I just can't", is indeed nothing but giving up, a bad excuse, and/or laziness.
I agree with the statement that a plate at 25' is all the accuracy needed. This is also common in training. You don't need to make a perfect head shot on a fast draw, he-who-fires-first-wins; just be able to place a reasonably accurate series of rounds COM. And be ready to move. Fast.
As far as being equally prone to tunnelling in on the target, it's also about periphrial(sp?) vision. Being able to see someone from your closed-eye side running into your sight picture. Being able to move while shooting without taking your eyes off your front sight. Being MORE ABLE TO PROPERLY DEFEND YOURSELF. I don't understand why you are taking such issue with this.
EasyG,
This statement makes me think of my grandma telling me to rub butter on a burn.
Maybe there isn't a blanket black and white on this. But there is a best way. When it comes to being able to defend onesself, why would any way but the best way be enough?
I used to shoot pistol with both eyes open. It took me awhile and I shot reasonably well, but not fantastic because I didn't shoot all that much.
I now shoot one-eyed and bassackwards, right-handed, left-eyed. (Right one doesn't work anymore.)
I shoot a lot more now and I've far surpassed my previous accuracy and speed. Of course it's hard to compare what it 'used to be like' to now, but it doesn't seem to me to be much different. Shooting IDPA (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) I seem to be able to acquire targets and maintain awareness as well as ever.
That being said, I do agree that both eyes open is the best method. However, it is far from impossible to become acceptably proficient closing one eye. As anything else, practice is the key.
I now shoot one-eyed and bassackwards, right-handed, left-eyed. (Right one doesn't work anymore.)
I shoot a lot more now and I've far surpassed my previous accuracy and speed. Of course it's hard to compare what it 'used to be like' to now, but it doesn't seem to me to be much different. Shooting IDPA (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) I seem to be able to acquire targets and maintain awareness as well as ever.
That being said, I do agree that both eyes open is the best method. However, it is far from impossible to become acceptably proficient closing one eye. As anything else, practice is the key.
Stevie-Ray
New member
There now, didn't that feel better? The only thing you left off the statement is for everybody. And the best way for you might not be the best way for everyone else.
I'm sure most took my "not arguing" to mean what it was meant as, and that was that I was not going to defend it with further debate, because a great many years of training and trying said I shoot better my way.
I'll refrain from replying to the rest of your plebeian insults and just put them off to your arrogance and a poor attempt at self-aggrandizement.
What training did you receive that told you that two eyes open in a SD situation isn't the best way? You may be able to shoot better at the range, but there is no reason to handicap yourself like this in a SD conflict.
The best way for everyone to be able to properly defend themselves in a SD conlict is two eyes open. You don't need to shoot a tin can off a fence post at 50yds on the first shot. You need to be able to see and to quickly fire on target with REASONABLE accuracy. Just because you aren't able to do it right now doesn't mean you can't learn to. My point in the whole thread has been you should learn to, and you should want to learn to.
I took it to mean you won't let any of the top experts and best of the best trainers in the world tell you you are wrong, because you seem to think you know better than them. The statement I made isn't something I just came up with, it was taught to me in training. It is taught to lots and lots of people in training. I can't think of one trainer or training program that would say it's ok to shoot with one eye, and don't bother learning a way that may help keep you safer.
I can honestly say I have never even tried 2eyes. I always learned 1eyed and it just seemed natural. Although when it comes to eye/ sight alignment I am all sorts of messed up. I am left handed, who shoots right handed with my left eye open. But I still do a good job hitting my 10ring.
Answer
Gregma, use one eye ,look at the front site lined up with rear, target in the background. Shoot. Keep the gun where it was for the shot and sight again with two eyes. Whichever target image and rear site image you're seeing that line up with where the hit is, are the two (one of the target images + one of the rear site images) to use when shooting two-eyed.
It's easier with a pen laser, try the same thing. Or even easier: hit something really easy with the laser, a doorknob 10 feet away or something. Hit it anyway you like in terms of eyes, just get it on the "target". Keep the light on the target while positioning the back of your laser in front of your eyes and look at its front, like sighting a gun. Whatever combination of images you're seeing for target and rear sight that show the laser on the doorknob, is the combination to use when shooting with two-eyes.
It's easier with a laser because you can keep the light on the target while playing around with your eyes and the laser light is really easy to see. Pretty obvious which are the real images, which are the ghosts.
Gregma, use one eye ,look at the front site lined up with rear, target in the background. Shoot. Keep the gun where it was for the shot and sight again with two eyes. Whichever target image and rear site image you're seeing that line up with where the hit is, are the two (one of the target images + one of the rear site images) to use when shooting two-eyed.
It's easier with a pen laser, try the same thing. Or even easier: hit something really easy with the laser, a doorknob 10 feet away or something. Hit it anyway you like in terms of eyes, just get it on the "target". Keep the light on the target while positioning the back of your laser in front of your eyes and look at its front, like sighting a gun. Whatever combination of images you're seeing for target and rear sight that show the laser on the doorknob, is the combination to use when shooting with two-eyes.
It's easier with a laser because you can keep the light on the target while playing around with your eyes and the laser light is really easy to see. Pretty obvious which are the real images, which are the ghosts.
Olive Drab
New member
the man is right
When i shoot with both eyes open i (almost) always hit the target at 21'. Right eye closed, i'm much more accurate. I've been shooting BG targets 'cause my aim sucks, i'm new to shooting. I've been instructed over the internet on how to use iron sights, since i haven't had time to head to a training class due to work.
One eye is MUCH more accurate, but i could learn to shoot with two.
Just like i could learn to shoot from the hip...
One eye is MUCH more accurate, but i could learn to shoot with two.
Just like i could learn to shoot from the hip...