After Istanbul Do You Go Straight For The Headshot?

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One thing I can't understand is the number of people who would run away from a shooter. The premise of the entire post was that an armed man had total advantage over a shooter who is bent on taking lives, and there are actually people who are saying that they will run and leave hundreds of targets without even a shred of hope. What sort of sheepdog hides behind a dumpster, Patting himself on the back because he succeeded in staying alive?
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One thing I can't understand is the number of people who use this unrealistic canid/caprid analogy like they plan to pattern their lives after it. It is FAKE, made up by somebody who doesn't understand what sheepdogs actually do. It might as well be based on the Warner Bros. cartoon stereotype. The role of the sheepdog is not just to protect the sheep, but to keep them prisoner to be exploited and then killed at will by the master. The sheep know that if they get out of line, a sheepdog is going to be nipping at their heels, forcing them to comply. The sheepdog is only the 'friend' to the sheep so long as the master says it is so.

However, if sticking to the analogy, and unlike the analogy, people are not sheep. Unlike sheep that can't grow pointy canines, most of those people being left behind have chosen not take care of themselves. Most of those people have chosen not to be armed. Most of those people have chosen not to learn self defense. Most of the people haven't bothered to consider what they would do in a crisis...and many them are gun owners.

Don't expect them to live up to unrealistic analogies about fictional utopian animal behavior. Sheepdogs are not the feel-good, magnanimous pillars of society who live for the sole purpose of protecting the sheep that you see in cartoons or read about in the story supposedly told to Grossman by some unnamed military colonel and then recounted in one of Grosman's books. If you believe that there are just sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves, then you are living in a overly simplified fantasy, not in reality.

However, if you want to fight that fight, you go right ahead. Some of us may be there with you, or not, but don't act like just because others of us carry guns that we have some sort of obligation to strangers and must put the well being of strangers before the well being of ourselves or our families who rely upon us. It is a choice that must be decided on the individual level by humans, not by fictional servant canines.
 
Don't know about all this sheep and dog stuff, but I do know that I'm not likely to make a one-shot head shot, while moving, without aiming (point shooting), at 30 feet, under pressure.

See, I've actually tried something a little like this. A bowling pin is somewhat close to being head-sized. A small group of us tried shooting a series of 5 bowling pins while quickly moving, point-shooting at a distance of about 15 feet. I was using a Glock 17 with 20 rounds. I think I hit maybe one bowling pin first try. After repeated efforts, this improved to maybe 3 bowling pins - between 15-20 rounds fired each time. We had to move a certain distance within a certain amount of time - we were being timed. I learned two things from this - don't move while shooting; only aimed shooting for me, even at 15 feet (forget yards!).

Maybe there are people out there who might be able to do this much better than I was. None of us were able to get proficient at this.
 
In answer to the OP's title thread question: Why not go straight for the head shot? Putting Istanbul aside, in any life or death violent event, why not just go straight for the head shot? (This last suggestion is not recommended for LE and only directed at those civilians who lawfully carry.)
 
I haven't taken head shots at people thankfully, but I do compete where one of the items is to hit moving targets. Hitting a headshot on a swinger at 25 yards which is what we're talking about, in a high stress environment with a CCL style pistol, is certainly beyond my realm of possibility, and would not be worth trying unless I literally couldn't run.

I am sure there are others on the board who can do that. Color me suitably impressed. However, while putting about a thousand rounds downrange a month is normal for me, I am fully aware I am merely a hack, and at this point in life its better to attempt to GTFO then end up a life insurance policy for the wife (who would miss me until the plane reached Cabo...;) )
 
Zincwarrior, thanks for mentioning your wife. I'm guessing she might miss you a little bit more than that, which brings us to one reason why getting the hell out of Dodge is a valid choice, and for many people, the best one they can make.

If you have a wife and kids, or even parents, for heavens' sake, you have a responsibility to them: to come home safe. The people in your life need you, and it's selfish to put action-movie notions about "honor" and "heroism" ahead of them.
 
If you have a wife and kids, or even parents, for heavens' sake, you have a responsibility to them: to come home safe. The people in your life need you, and it's selfish to put action-movie notions about "honor" and "heroism" ahead of them.
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Exactly. This isn't even considering that in many of these circumstances, some of that family will be with us at the time.
 
007, I believe that you really hate that term, so that gives me a good reason to never use it again. Keep in mind, though, that you only have a part of that story, historically, they weren't just herding animals, they were placed with that tiny flock of sheep that the very small farmers had for protection as well. If nothing else, the loyalty of that dog to the shepherd is admirable.I promise, ill stop using it and try to find another analogy that offends fewer people.

I believe in God, duty, the bible, a higher purpose,and a whole lot of other things. The one single law of civilized peopl that really matters, the golden rule, says that we should help others as we would want to be helped. Really, do you believe that every person at a grocery store, the children, old autistic, crippled, blind, or even those staff members forbidden to carry guns don't deserve help because of the choices they made? That they don't deserve your help?

Let's try an analogy, even if it offends you. If you found yourself in probable danger, would you call a cop? a stranger hammered on your door at night and then started prowling around your yard ( don't go shoot him, he's an autistic teenager who moved in down the road, and his guinea pig escaped). Would you call a cop?

My belief is that everyone should make the effort to preserve the well being of their neighbors as far as is possible. Damon, that's a hard thought to stomach at this age, knowing that everywhere I go, the world is full of scumbags who aren't worthy of sacrificing my life or safety.

But, everywhere in the bible, there are directions to give yourself to your fellow man.

Can you save five lives in a shooting incident? I don't care about whether they're Quakers who won't carry a gun, the better part of what we are supposed to be repeatedly states that we are expected, as human beings, to intervene.

Whenever it comes, I'm going to intervene unless the situation just doesn't fit. I'm not walking into a bunch of bangers on a corner shooting at each other, but I couldn't do what you suggest, and I really pray that more people will take charge of the lives of the feeble and do what they should.

I'm not saying to vote liberal, but how can we live in a world where people walked p as t a dead guy for two days? People who won't even look at someone to check for signs of life?
 
I wouldn't push the Bible angle on this. I don't see where Jesus said its cool to wack someone, for any reason. He might get downright offended at the thought.
 
Don't expect them to live up to unrealistic analogies about fictional utopian animal behavior. Sheepdogs are not the feel-good, magnanimous pillars of society who live for the sole purpose of protecting the sheep that you see in cartoons or read about in the story supposedly told to Grossman by some unnamed military colonel and then recounted in one of Grosman's books.
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The "Sheepdog" analogy is just that... an ANALOGY. I, for one, think it is a GREAT way to explain the differences in personality types. Especially, to those that look at the armed citizen with some kind of trepidation.

It explains that not all people that carry guns are evil wrong doers. That there exists in society a percentage of people that put the common good above themselves. That there ARE people that run TOWARDS the sound of gun...not away

It also explains that those people are the exception, not the rule. And that its OK to not feel that calling. In fact its by far MORE normal to run away then fight. Either way...its OK.

I know Dave. He (and his family) took a 4 day defensive handgun course that i taught at Front Sight back in the day. Ive sat and broken bread with him. Listened to his lectures, read his books.

I fully understand that the "Sheepdog" analogy is not 100% accurate. But it does describe a complex socitial interaction in terms that are easay to understand and relay. Is that not what an analogy is for?

I have lead that "Sheepdog" life, ALL of my life. I have run towards the sound of guns on more then one occasion and in multiple parts of the world.

I WILL do so again if needed.

For those of you that chose not to step into the fight if a Wolf shows up...thats FINE. That is YOUR decision. No problem with that, truly.

I am proud to stand with my brothers and answer that call. I have pledged multiple times to lay down my life to protect my fellow man.

I train constantly, and not just with guns, so that i can be prepared for that call. It IS a lifestyle for me and guys like me. If thats not for you...thats OK

BUT DONT disparage me or the guys like me for our willingness to give ALL for the common good. We take the "STUFF" seriously.
 
While I think the Golden Rule transcends religion, I agree that religious views can't be discussed here.
 
I have a mountain dog. This sheepdog thing is overrated. They're really bossy. All he wants to do is herd everyone around the house and yard. Whenever we have a party he's always trying to herd us into the center of the room. The wife jokes that we need to get a goat so he can herd it around the back yard. :rolleyes:
 
Without starting a huge religious discussion.

There are LOTS of scriptural references to self defense in the Christrian Bible.

"Those that dont own swords, should sell their coats and buy one". Is roughly paraphrased, but that the message.

The idea that Christianity condems defensive conduct is simply not true.
 
Not true to you. Others take the "thou shalt not kill" as the unshakable rule.
Also, forget the wolf/sheep/sheepdog reference. A wiener dog is of course naturally superior. :D

If you feel that you with your CC is sufficient to deal with a body armored terrorist via headshots, thats fine. I would recommend lots of practice (the fun part!)
 
The idea that Christianity condems defensive conduct is simply not true.
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We've already crossed the line I'm afraid. I agree with you or I could not carry a gun. With that said, a compelling case against killing can be made using Biblical text. We cannot go down that path though.

Zincwarrior, I have a 7.5 pound Chihuahua that is protective of his territory and the people who belong to him as any sheepdog.:D
 
This is off topic. The specific start was a technique. Religious comments are not.

Nor is the ever repeated, sheepdog, flee for your life debate on topic.

Back on course, or this will get shut down.
 
WC145, I hate to even acknowledge your comment because obviously you are just stirring the pot more. But when I said "...most carry pocket 9mm or .380's..." obviously I was not talking about armed soldiers I was referring to concealed carriers.

Oh and as a matter of fact my step father served 32 years of duty to this country so... maybe I havn't but I suffered the consiquences of being in a military family as a kid.
 
In answer to the OP's title thread question: Why not go straight for the head shot? Putting Istanbul aside, in any life or death violent event, why not just go straight for the head shot? (This last suggestion is not recommended for LE and only directed at those civilians who lawfully carry.)
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I would say every time go for a head shot, if you know you are good enough to hit a moving target that size. If you miss all you might do is get their attention and encourage them to press a button.
 
WC145, I hate to even acknowledge your comment because obviously you are just stirring the pot more. But when I said "...most carry pocket 9mm or .380's..." obviously I was not talking about armed soldiers I was referring to concealed carriers.

Oh and as a matter of fact my step father served 32 years of duty to this country so... maybe I havn't but I suffered the consiquences of being in a military family as a kid.
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I wasn't trying to stir anything up. What you were talking about in your post was not obvious because it came across like you were saying that most military carry M16s and pocket 9mms or .380s. I wanted to know where you came up with that idea. If that's not what you meant, fine.

I hope your stepfather enjoyed his 32 year military career, that's quite an accomplishment, something to be proud of. Don't know what "consequences" you might have suffered growing up in a military family. My grandfather served, my dad was a career man, I did 4 years, and my son has been in over 8 years now. I grew up a military brat and am probably better off for it. I hope you're able to work out whatever your issues you have.
 
Moving around as a kid wasn't enjoyable for me. For some people it's a joy to go and see different states and countries and I enjoy traveling now that I'm older but I wasn't asked as a kid if that's what I wanted. I was forced to move to 7 different states and multiple places in Germany. Sorry if I came across rude, hard to express emotion in a post on a forum haha
 
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