After Istanbul Do You Go Straight For The Headshot?

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Single head shots as plan A, have been taught as a standard response under specific conditions as long as ive been teaching the serious use of the handgun (3 decades).

Basically, anytime you cannot accecpt the possibility of a failure to stop. Distance from the threat is usually the limiting factor


I don't know about you, but as for me any deadly force situation is one where failure is not an option. Are there situations where you could accept the possibility of failure?

The generally acknowledged first response to a deadly threat is mtpl shots "center mass". This usually means 2-4 rounds into the chest as fast as you can deliver them.

Human physiology and wound ballistics tell us that has a LIKELIHOOD of stopping the attacker, but the possibility of a failure to stop is present.

So, yes...there is a possibility of a failure in the traditional response.

Thats response, however, is the easiest to perform and has a good chance of success.

Contrast that with going straight for a CNS shot. MUCH harder to guaranty at anything but the closest ranges and your skill level must be higher.

Am I reading your question correctly??
 
What appears to have happened at least once in Istanbul was that a security officer shot at a shooter until he was down, then realized that there was a bomb vest on him and ran, trying to get out of range of the bomb blast. I don't know if he got away or not, but I can't quibble with his actions. Gun against gun gives you some kind of chance; gun against bomb is not a winning hand.

Would I try a head shot if I was certain a shooter was wearing a bomb? I doubt it. A dead man switch would mean that I triggered the bomb, and if there were other people in the vicinity, I just cut to zero the time they had to get clear.
 
Personally, I would ALWAYS shoot for the chest first for several reasons:

1. That's how I train, so that's what I'm going to be best at;
2. Chest is still the biggest target;
3. Body armor doesn't mean bullets just bounce off leaving the wearer unimpacted. At the very least, it's going to feel like a mule kick to the chest. It's going to take some time for a shooter to recover enough, after taking 2 shots of hot 9mm or 45 to the chest. You can use that time to possibly take cover or possibly make a groin, leg or head shot.
 
A dead man switch would mean that I triggered the bomb

Everybody seems to be looking for a nice neat answer to this. Its a GUNFIGHT. Its sloppy and messy and nobody "wins"

Yes, IF he has a pressure release trigger on his vest, then its going off. But thats only IF HE HAS it wired that way.

If you dont shoot him it WILL go off at the time and place of his choosing, and thats going to be a place of maximum effect.

So shoot him and take the chance it might go off. Or dont shoot and ensure it will go off????
 
3. Body armor doesn't mean bullets just bounce off leaving the wearer unimpacted. At the very least, it's going to feel like a mule kick to the chest. It's going to take some time for a shooter to recover enough, after taking 2 shots of hot 9mm or 45 to the chest. You can use that time to possibly take cover or possibly make a groin, leg or head shot.

Skans, i dont mean to be argumentative, but...

Dont count on a bullet impact into a vest to discombobulate an attacker.

Personal example... When i was working in LA, we had a guy shot in ther back with a 44mag:eek: bullet impacted about 3" above the kidney. He was wearing a Safariland vest (dont remember the model) in level 3a.

He never went down... Turned and returned fire. That evening when i saw him after being checked out at the hospital. He had one heck of a bruise and said he felt like he had been hit by a baseball. AT THE TIME..he just fought on. No incapacity at all, and that was with a 44mag

I would not expect a 9 or 40 or 45 to have any more effect.
 
while it won't necessarily mean stopping the criminal or terrorist from shooting, a shot to the pelvic area can very well immobilize them and make it easier for your escape. the head is a small target that is even harder to hit when the target is moving. the lower torso/gut/buttocks/pelvis.... a little easier.
One of the Istanbul terrorists was "immobilized" for several seconds after being shot, but still was able to detonate his bomb.

I'd go for the head shot if I was close enough
 
I would try to escape, but...

I train for central mass shots, so that's where my first couple rounds are going.
Having done research on garden variety nut jobs, they seem to pause to reset priorities when confronted with active resistance, even when wearing body armor.
If confronted by an ISIS crazy, he or she might have some actual combat experience, so he or she might press on despite the resistance.

No telling how either of these episodes will end, but I'd rather have something in my hand besides my car keys if I found myself in either situation.
 
3. Body armor doesn't mean bullets just bounce off leaving the wearer unimpacted. At the very least, it's going to feel like a mule kick to the chest. It's going to take some time for a shooter to recover enough, after taking 2 shots of hot 9mm or 45 to the chest....
That "mule kick" is no greater than the recoil of your firearm.

There's a video of a .308 fired point blank at a man with a vest...and it didn't faze him.
 
A suicide bomber will not be wearing body armour. If you're close enough to use a hand gun accurately, you're close enough to be blown up when, not if, said suicide nut job blows himself up.
"...video of a .308 fired point blank at a man with a vest..." Dickie Davis, owner of Second Chance Body Armour did that to sell his Hard Core 3 vests years ago. Shot one of his lackeys with an FN from ONE FOOT away. Guy didn't even fall over.
"...gun free zones. So if your armed..." You're the target of the LEO types who are as scared as everybody else, but armed, because you just became a felon depending on where you are. Your American CCW permit is not valid outside the U.S. of A.
"...how to you know the guy is a terrorist and..." A shooter is a shooter. Who cares why he's a shooter? It's irrelevant.
 
Sharkbite, it sounds like the guy shot in the back was an on-duty police officer of some sort.

Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good and should give you some time to follow up with better shots, or take evasive action. What's your alternative - try for a head shot at 20-30 feet? I shoot a lot, but I'm just not that good! Plus, I'm not going to take the time to figure out what, if any, body armor the guy is wearing. I'm just going to start shooting at the most massive part of his body, and if I think I can then take a head shot (assuming he's still active), I might try.
 
Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good

"Equal and opposite reaction"--sound familiar. Basic physics. No free lunch... You are not hitting him any harder then your gun is recoiling.

Ive talked to a few guys that have been shot while wearing soft armor. They decribe it as a modest punch. Soft armor is DESIGNED to spread out the impact force.

One of the guys involved in a shooting was hit center chest (right into the trama plate) and didnt even know he had been hit until someone pointed out the hole in his shirt. Now granted he was hit with a .32acp, but the concept stands.

No knockdown power. VERY little blunt force trauma with standard duty type handguns. Just not going to get the effect you hope for.

Sad but true...
 
Two shots of +P 9mm to the chest of an untrained person wearing body armor is going to stun him pretty good and should give you some time to follow up with better shots, or take evasive action.
What in ehe world gave you that idea?
 
Why does everyone enjoy discussing what one would do in a self defense situation where you were forced to draw your ccw and defend yourself? Imo there are people who get a concealed carry permit for their defense, then there are some who want to be the hero after a mass shootout.

Let's put it this way, nobody NEEDS (keyword is "needs") to prepare for a terrorist attack. Like one person said, you can't even carry in an airport. I'd say the majority of people who get a ccp (concealed carry permit) don't ever even need to draw their pistol in public. Fact is a ccp is for self defense, it isn't to seek out an attacker and become a hero that saved people. Basically unless forced to do so you should never engage a terrorist, wether that be a suicide bomber, or just someone shooting up the local mall. Don't do it, I don't give a flying fadoodle how often you train, or if you shoot an IDPA match once a week. Chances are that person has something bigger and easier to kill you with than your pocket pistol. But let's just say, best case scenario you carry a full size pistol, be it a 1911, Glock, or my personal favorite a Sig 226. What do you have on someone with a full auto rifle? Not a damn thing, best case scenario you pop off a lucky shot and nail him in the brain and he's drt, not likely though. Now do I think you should stand by and let someone wreck havoc on 100's or potentially thousands of innocent people? No, what I do think though is you should not do anymore than what is possible. Protect yourself and your family and anyone else you can. If you can warn everybody discretely do so and don't let it be known that you know something is about to go down. In only a situation where it can't get worse should you ever pursue a terrorist type attacker.

I've got a what if for all the "hero" types. What are you gonna do if you miss that first shot? Chances are that's the attacker will then notice you with his fully automatic weapon and literally point and pull, taking out you and anybody near you. Now you're dead because instead of thinking it through you reacted with a hero type mindset. I understand situations like this don't give much time to think, but just because you carry doesn't mean you have to use your weapon if something bad happens.

I personally think everyone should prepare more for break ins, red light hijackings, parking lot muggings, why? Because all of these are 1,000,000 to 1 more likely to happen than you being in a situation where a terrorist decides to attack. You more likely to win money off a scratcher than you are the lottery, just like your more likely to get robbed at Walmart than be part of a terrorist attack.

I know my opinion might be found as rude and maybe even perceived as a scared type. Think what you want, but even I don't know what I'd do in a situation like this. Nobody does because you can train and train and train but when it happens it will be such a suprise that you will forget your training and your basic instincts will kick in.

Also to the person who think that a 9mm+P round will incapacitate an attacker and give you some time, don't count on it. Ever heard of adrenaline? I can't say for sure that it would even hurt anyways... but I've seen running deer shot 5 times with buckshot at 20 feet away and never slow down. I'm sure these terrorist have plenty of adrenaline going through their body... if they are ISIS they are fulfilling their lives dream I mean they are like a tweaker in a meth house, they feel great. Adrenaline can make the body do amazing things and I would never take a shot to try and "hurt" someone, if I'm pulling that trigger it's going in some part of the cns and taking he/she out.
 
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DontRushTheShot said:
I personally think everyone should prepare more for break ins, red light hijackings, parking lot muggings....

[Y]ou can train and train and train but when it happens it will be such a suprise that you will forget your training and your basic instincts will kick in.

Bold added.

:confused:
 
Also to the person who think that a 9mm+P round will incapacitate an attacker and give you some time, don't count on it.

I am pretty proficient with a handgun, but I'll admit, I'm not good enough to 1) determine whether or not an attacker is wearing body armor; 2) make a split decision to go for the head first, after verifying he is wearing body armor; 3) while he has his gun pointed in my direction and ready to shoot me; and 4) make that head shot (better be that a brain shot or it might not stop him) while ensuring that I'm not going to shoot someone else by accident.

Good luck with your "head shot". Hope that works out for you. (Yes, that's what we were discussing) Me, I'm going to keep it simple - when under attack, shoot center of mass - at least to start with.
 
Do you honestly think the attacker won't realize he was just shot and quickly figure out who it came from? You better be able to make a headshot because all your going to do is piss the guy off. If you arnt proficient enough with a handgun to make a headshot from 10-15 yards then I'm sorry but you would probably do in this situation... I was speaking as if you knew there was body armor. Sorry if I offended you? But point is that 9mm +P isn't going to help when shot into body armor.

Though I never said I would go for the headshot, I just stated that I didn't think just popping someone in body armor would help very much.
 
Though I never said I would go for the headshot,

So, then it sounds like you would likely do the same thing that I said I'd do. I never said I wouldn't go for a headshot, just that it is unlikely that would be my 1st or 2nd shot.
 
I dont understand the hesitancy of making head shots, armor or not. If youre close enough, why waste time on COM? Head shots are the "kill switch".

If youre practiced (and I fully realize, this is the key here ;)), head shots are not at all difficult, even while moving and using no sights. I would certainly say, if you cant quickly and repeatedly make those shots at 7-10 yards, then you probably need some work.
 
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