After Istanbul Do You Go Straight For The Headshot?
- Thread starter rjinga
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You wasted what I would do if the decision to shoot was wade, it had to be done to save lives, to stop the shooter an save lives.
Am I good enough for a head shot at the distance? Who is in. The way if I miss? The best option may be to dump rounds into his butt in til something breaks and he goes down. Aimed at his pelvis I'm going to be far more likely to hit, less likely to throw a wild round off at head level, and a shot almost anywhere in the pelvis, below the vest, is going to put him down like a head shot when hip, thigh,pelvis or spine are shattered. Then if the threat isn't over and I've taken a few more steps he's going to take rounds in the head..
Frankly, I've seen what happens when someone in armor takes a hit, and in a powerful enough weapon, five rounds in the back, even if it doesn't penetrate, he's likely to be badly hurt and will almost certainly be so distracted that he'll stop.
Nothing is certain, so please don't know waste my time telling me how stupid I am. These two options seem good for me, as I'm never going to feel good about a head shot.
A sniper from our tactical unit fired at a had in a hostage situation and missed, putting the round through the guys lower jaw, and DID NOT IMOBILIZE THE GUY. Even a trained, professional sniper with a rifle can blow a head shot. It takes real ands to take a head shot at an active shooter, dodging and twitching. It also takes arrogance and a certain lack of concern for collateral damage.
Am I good enough for a head shot at the distance? Who is in. The way if I miss? The best option may be to dump rounds into his butt in til something breaks and he goes down. Aimed at his pelvis I'm going to be far more likely to hit, less likely to throw a wild round off at head level, and a shot almost anywhere in the pelvis, below the vest, is going to put him down like a head shot when hip, thigh,pelvis or spine are shattered. Then if the threat isn't over and I've taken a few more steps he's going to take rounds in the head..
Frankly, I've seen what happens when someone in armor takes a hit, and in a powerful enough weapon, five rounds in the back, even if it doesn't penetrate, he's likely to be badly hurt and will almost certainly be so distracted that he'll stop.
Nothing is certain, so please don't know waste my time telling me how stupid I am. These two options seem good for me, as I'm never going to feel good about a head shot.
A sniper from our tactical unit fired at a had in a hostage situation and missed, putting the round through the guys lower jaw, and DID NOT IMOBILIZE THE GUY. Even a trained, professional sniper with a rifle can blow a head shot. It takes real ands to take a head shot at an active shooter, dodging and twitching. It also takes arrogance and a certain lack of concern for collateral damage.
DontRushTheShot
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^^ I agree.
I'll admit that I will rarely make a head shot while moving and not using sights at 21 to 30 feet! (yes, I've actually tried this with similarly sized targets) In fact, it is not even likely that I'll make many body shots at 30 feet moving and shooting using no sights. And, no, I'm not going to practice until I can do this proficiently. Ain't gonna happen. Not in my lifetime....even if I were 18 years old and I practiced this every day for the next 40 years. Without a certified GI James Bond card, I just don't have what it takes.
A head shot is one choice out of several, and you have a risk of abject, total failure. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to train with thousands of rounds annually with running, hopping skipping, we are stuck in dead end jobs, using public ranges that toss you out if you even do a double tap. Some of us just ain't no good,and firing at the head is going to do nothing but send stray round downwind. The only choice a person has is to get a better position and go for precision fire, and/or tArget another body part that gives better odds.
One thing I can't understand is the number of people who would run away from a shooter. The premise of the entire post was that an armed man had total advantage over a shooter who is bent on taking lives, and there are actually people who are saying that they will run and leave hundreds of targets without even a shred of hope. What sort of sheepdog hides behind a dumpster, Patting himself on the back because he succeeded in staying alive?
Bomb or no bomb. Do we expect our soldiers and first responders to run towards danger, yet put our own safety above the lives of the rest of the dozens, or even hundreds of people in front of the gun or explosives?
My opinion, a very unpopular one, is that when you carry, you have become one of the "militia" and the duty of a militia is to preserve the safety of the people as possible. There are m any things that are worse than dying, and waking up the next day to find out that ten, twenty, or even an entire classroom full of kids died because of a choice to stay alive rather than engage the enemy is one of them.
One thing I can't understand is the number of people who would run away from a shooter. The premise of the entire post was that an armed man had total advantage over a shooter who is bent on taking lives, and there are actually people who are saying that they will run and leave hundreds of targets without even a shred of hope. What sort of sheepdog hides behind a dumpster, Patting himself on the back because he succeeded in staying alive?
Bomb or no bomb. Do we expect our soldiers and first responders to run towards danger, yet put our own safety above the lives of the rest of the dozens, or even hundreds of people in front of the gun or explosives?
My opinion, a very unpopular one, is that when you carry, you have become one of the "militia" and the duty of a militia is to preserve the safety of the people as possible. There are m any things that are worse than dying, and waking up the next day to find out that ten, twenty, or even an entire classroom full of kids died because of a choice to stay alive rather than engage the enemy is one of them.
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DontRushTheShot
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I don't expect our military to go into a fight underarmed. They carry M16's, most carry pocket 9mm's or .380's. You're right, nobody should run from a fight and I can't say that I would stay and fight or run, I can only hope I do what is the best in that situation. Chances are though I'll never encounter a situation where I need to make that choice, mainly because I live in a small town of 10,000 people, there is an airstrip for private planes, and th3 place with the most people at any given time is Walmart. I don't go to Walmart anyways. Also who brought up a school? I thought this "scenario" was occurring in an airport or other largely populated area. A school shooting is a completely different subject, anyone and everyone should do everything they can to stop a school shooting no excuses.
I have no issue with you. For that matter, I have no intention of condemning in hindsight anyone who is unable to fight and save lives, but someone who plans in advance to bail out and leave others in danger don't deserve my respect. Regarding a school, is there a place in America that is safe from mass killings? Not that I am aware of. Let's look back thirty years. Sitting in my truck, waiting to pick up my daughter, what would I do if I heard shots? It can't be good, it's not cops, this happened with no context, so I'm going to grab my pistol and run. Those opening shots are almost certainly an aggressor, or there would have obviously been a police presence.
It doesn't matter to me if it's Isis or an autistic boy, if it can be stopped, even if it means sacrifice, people should be willing to sacrifice to save others. How many people generally die in school shootings, and how long do they last? Too many, and barely long enough for first responders to get on scene.
It doesn't matter to me if it's Isis or an autistic boy, if it can be stopped, even if it means sacrifice, people should be willing to sacrifice to save others. How many people generally die in school shootings, and how long do they last? Too many, and barely long enough for first responders to get on scene.
DontRushTheShot
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Ok let me just say this then I have nothing else to say about the topic.
In my opinion in a terrorist shooting situation there is two ways it can go if you try to stop the attack by killing him. You die, or he dies. If I have my family to protect and can flee the situation getting them to safety I will do so. If I can stop the attacker I will do so, but I don't flee for myself. My first and only goal in a situation like the depicted scenario would be to get my family away from the area. In a situation where I was alone I would help as many women and children as possible and then seek out the attacker where I would then go about ending the rampage in the quickest without myself dieing.
I don't want to die, I'm in my early 20's I have a lot left to live for, but like I said I don't flee for myself
But hell, this attacker is in the middle of a crowd and your gonna just start shooting at him?
In my opinion in a terrorist shooting situation there is two ways it can go if you try to stop the attack by killing him. You die, or he dies. If I have my family to protect and can flee the situation getting them to safety I will do so. If I can stop the attacker I will do so, but I don't flee for myself. My first and only goal in a situation like the depicted scenario would be to get my family away from the area. In a situation where I was alone I would help as many women and children as possible and then seek out the attacker where I would then go about ending the rampage in the quickest without myself dieing.
I don't want to die, I'm in my early 20's I have a lot left to live for, but like I said I don't flee for myself
But hell, this attacker is in the middle of a crowd and your gonna just start shooting at him?
There is no real defense from a suicide bomber they doint usually wear a placard saying i am a suicide bomber. Unless you somehow know he is a suicide bomber and walk up and put a round in his head you are on a hiding to nothing. If like in the video you drop him and than see he has a bomb run.
Well, I havent got my card yet, but Im guessing if thats what it takes to get one, Ill likely be able to qualify. And I only practice once or twice a week.
Then again, I do practice regularly and as relistically as I can, carry and use a full sized handgun (Glock 17), and even my back up (a 26) would be shunned by many who carry these days as being to "large". Funny thing is, I cant ever remember seeing anyone with a "little" gun practicing the least bit realistically, so maybe thats why you hear all the negativity and "its not possible". You get out of it, what you put into it.
That can be understood (to a point I guess), but there are always work arounds if you want/chose to be proficient.
This time of year, I work 50-60+ hours a week with an hour drive on either end of the day. Get up at 3:30 or so, and get to bed at 8-9. I dont have a whole lot of time, but I still figure out a way to get some practice in and reload what I shoot each week as well.
The fact youre "no good" isnt the least bit reassuring, and actually down right negligent if youre carrying a gun. If you choose to, it is your responsibility to at least be reasonably proficient with what you choose to carry.
The average head is about 10"x7" with a 3"x5" focal point that is the "switch". If you cant hit basically a sheet of notebook paper at ten yards and in, you really have no business carrying a gun, dont you think? If you cant, Id suggest its something you may want to try to set a goal for.
As I said eariler, it really isnt all that hard, especially with a little practice. If you dont want to put in the effort, suit yourself. Your choice.
Youve stumbled onto a big topic here. Prepare to be severely chastised for saying you think you have a responsibly to "do the right thing", if youre capable. The whole world is ruled by lawyers and insurance companies, and dont even whisper certain subjects, or youll be sued and ruined. Its OK to die, or cause others to die, by doing nothing and /or running away, just dont stand up for yourself or try and do the right thing.
Of course, many of those same people will tell you they carry a fashion accessory gun, to protect themselves of course, not for anything else though, they might get in trouble otherwise.
Not at all unpopular in my very narrow circles, but not something thats popular around here.
I live in a very rural area. The entire zip code has 450 people in it. There are more whack jobs and general dysfunction out here, than in any city Ive ever lived in or near. And here, the police response is about half an hour on a good day, if theres a Trooper is in the area.
Thats all anyone can hope for and offer. I would hope that if my family were in a bad spot and someone were there who "could" do something, they would. From a lot of the responses around here, Im glad they are a little more self reliant and capable themselves. I always told my kids growing up, and still believe it today, theres only one person in this world with your best interest at heart, and responsible for your safety, and thats "you". If you choose to screw that up, then its on no one else.
As with most of these type threads, everyone wins the gunfight they have in their minds. Everything goes as its supposed too, and they always prevail.
Yet in reality, not very many seem to take things too seriously, just look at the guns they choose, and how, and how often they choose to practice/train. Yet when someone suggests that you actually can do something that they seem to not be able to do, that person is the one who is asking for trouble or nuts.
From what Ive seen at the local ranges Ive been to over the years, "reasonably proficient" isnt even on the page for most, and that includes more than a few in law enforcement. If all you do is shoot tight little groups at close range bullseye targets, at your leisure, and have convinced yourself that youre prepared for anything that might come, then youre seriously deluding yourself. You may have the basics down, but thats about it. Time to push your limits a little, put your big boy pants on, and move on.
WHAT?!?!?!!?!?! We can employ TACTICS to improve our performance?????
Im SO tired of folks on here saying it cant be done. Its not your responsibility. You should not try to stop the shooter
To quote "if not you...who"? Right then...right there, you may be the only hope for the rest of the people on scene. Police response time will not be as fast as you presenting and firing a single well placed headshot.
Am, you're off base for starters, I'm not talking about myself.
The concealed carry p permit here requires training and the ability to hit a ten by ten at twenty feet. You presume to say that people who can't shoot to whatever your standard is are negligent, and need to find a way to "work around" obstacles to reach your expected level of proficiency, an individual should surrender his second amendment rights and walk away in shame because you th I k so?
Being able to make a head shot on a target that is dodging b back and forth firing or moving in any way at even twenty or thirty is probably beyond 90 percent of the people I encounter, put them into an exploding situation, I'm pretty sure that I don't know anyone that could head shoot someone who's acting up at fifty feet or farther. Taking that head shot when pelvic shots are possible could be seen as negligent, too. Only in case the shooter misses, and so forth, but a hit would make the shooter the hero of the day.
First you said that I was negligent, suggested that I should give up my gun, and now, you say that I should "put my big boy pants on" and just get better? All this because I'm not willing to, and don't think that I could make a killing head shot during a shooting situation that I'm unwittingly involved in?
You've made some serious demands on people. Be good or give it up. I thought that the general idea was to have It if you c an so you can be safe from danger? You said yourselves that most of the shooters who you see are incapable, even le officers. The end of the line is that being able to head shoot a thug is unnecessary in most gunfight, I believe, and in almost any gunfight one should fire at the largest target with the best chance of disabling the bg
The concealed carry p permit here requires training and the ability to hit a ten by ten at twenty feet. You presume to say that people who can't shoot to whatever your standard is are negligent, and need to find a way to "work around" obstacles to reach your expected level of proficiency, an individual should surrender his second amendment rights and walk away in shame because you th I k so?
Being able to make a head shot on a target that is dodging b back and forth firing or moving in any way at even twenty or thirty is probably beyond 90 percent of the people I encounter, put them into an exploding situation, I'm pretty sure that I don't know anyone that could head shoot someone who's acting up at fifty feet or farther. Taking that head shot when pelvic shots are possible could be seen as negligent, too. Only in case the shooter misses, and so forth, but a hit would make the shooter the hero of the day.
First you said that I was negligent, suggested that I should give up my gun, and now, you say that I should "put my big boy pants on" and just get better? All this because I'm not willing to, and don't think that I could make a killing head shot during a shooting situation that I'm unwittingly involved in?
You've made some serious demands on people. Be good or give it up. I thought that the general idea was to have It if you c an so you can be safe from danger? You said yourselves that most of the shooters who you see are incapable, even le officers. The end of the line is that being able to head shoot a thug is unnecessary in most gunfight, I believe, and in almost any gunfight one should fire at the largest target with the best chance of disabling the bg
You and me both.
We are not required to pass any test. Its youre responsibility to be proficient with your gun, or face the consequences of you actions. That applies to anyone, proficient or not.
You seem to want to put words in my mouth here. Where did I ever say anything about taking anyones rights? The whole jist of what Im saying is, its your responsibility to be proficient with your gun, if you intend to carry it. If youre not, its all on you. Just having a gun isnt going to save you, and if youre thinking it is, then youre already in a bad way, and need to wake up.
I never said give it up. Youre said that. Again, youre trying to putting words in my mouth.
Im saying if you need practice, then practice. Do your due diligence. Its your responsibility to do so, if you plan on carrying a gun and have any thought of actually using it. Dont cry to me about it if youre lacking, not my fault. The Army got it right in their recruitment ads... "be all you can be". Sounds like a good plan, if you plan on carrying a gun.
No, that is exactly what you said, among other things, saying that nothing is ever good enough, that only constantly training will allow a person to deserve a ccw license.
We will always come back to one thing. People who peak at a certain level of proficiency should always try to be better, but nevertheless, people still reach that wall of performance, and no matter how badly we want everybody to be experts, it's not going to happen.
Anyone who believes that he can make a headshot, it's not my problem unless I'm on the other end of the bullet. As you said yourselfI'm never going to do it except in the most extreme circumstances. I only hope that people know their own limitations, and don't press them.
A few months ago I was at my range, and a training session was going on at another section. Out of the blue someone shouted "HE SHOT THE HOSTAGE!" He's working as armed security.
We will always come back to one thing. People who peak at a certain level of proficiency should always try to be better, but nevertheless, people still reach that wall of performance, and no matter how badly we want everybody to be experts, it's not going to happen.
Anyone who believes that he can make a headshot, it's not my problem unless I'm on the other end of the bullet. As you said yourselfI'm never going to do it except in the most extreme circumstances. I only hope that people know their own limitations, and don't press them.
A few months ago I was at my range, and a training session was going on at another section. Out of the blue someone shouted "HE SHOT THE HOSTAGE!" He's working as armed security.
Harry Callahan.
No one is all they can be AK. We all have areas where we don't measure up. Not all of us meet your standard when it comes to training, weapons, or mission objective and some of us are perfectly comfortable with that. My objective is to be as prepared as I can be to use lethal force if necessary, with the time and resources I have available. I will do my very best to satisfy that commitment. I also understand that as member of the gun carrying community I have an obligation to conduct myself honorably and responsibly. That is my mission.
That's it. I sure as beck wish I could get a grasp on string theory. I have black holes, quantum entanglement, dark matter, dark energy, and even some of the more abstract bits of relativity at a comfortable grasp, but something about string theory makes me decide not to take head shots at it.
Btw, ever heard about that thing called the force? It really does exist, an all encompassing force that reaches from one end of the known universe clear to the other. It's gravity. The other end of the universe is being affected by the gravitational effects of every bit of the known universe. If we could learn to control and manipulate gravity, assign identifying information to it, we could, in theory, twitch a thumb here on earth an detect it many light years away.
Btw, ever heard about that thing called the force? It really does exist, an all encompassing force that reaches from one end of the known universe clear to the other. It's gravity. The other end of the universe is being affected by the gravitational effects of every bit of the known universe. If we could learn to control and manipulate gravity, assign identifying information to it, we could, in theory, twitch a thumb here on earth an detect it many light years away.
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