Advantage of the 147 gr. 9mm over the 124?

[444]

nate45

That was an excellent post.
Once you have personally seen a few people shot with handguns, upclose and personal, you realize that most of this stuff is a crock. Handguns are very poor performers. The fact that an almost infinite amount of time and effort has been spent online arguing how much difference increasing the bullet diameter by a couple thousandths of an inch (9mm vs. .45) shows you how much free time we have on our hands. Let alone the idea that people debate endlessly what they perceive as HUGE differences between bulllets of the same caliber and weight. It's a joke. Then the whole argument goes out the window if you shoot them twice: everything has changed.



Think about this, it may mean absolutely nothing, it may mean something, who knows ?
Let's say you stab a guy in the gut with a knife and observe the result.
Then you take another knife but the blade is .093" wider thereby increasing the wound channel by .093". How much of a difference do you think it is going to make ?

 

[B.N.Real]

I'm definitely staying with the 115 grain loadings in hollowpoint for the 9mm.

You HAVE to have the speed to get the bullet to mushroom.

I'm even leaning towards a +p loading because I am pretty sure my P95 Ruger can handle the commercial +p 9mm loads with NO problem.

And the fact that law enforcement is seeing some real battle evidence that the +p 9mm is a worthy round in a gun fight does not hurt at all.

Much heavier bullets don't make a good difference unless the round and the gun are designed together to make both work right.

15 +p 9mm 115 grain hollowpoints in an attackers chest should stop any gun fight.

At least,I sure hope so.

 

[Hook686]

From the Buffalo Bore web site:

Item 24A/20: (+P+) 115gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1400 fps 500 ft. lbs. Per Box of 20
$23.03
Order Now!
Item 24B/20: (+P+) 124gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1300 fps
461 ft. lbs. Per Box of 20
$23.03
Order Now!
Item 24C/20: (+P+) 147gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1175 fps
451 ft. lbs Per Bo

It seems to me the 147 grain load has 7% more momentum at a cost of 2% kenetic energy, compared to the 124 grain bullet and 7% more momentum at a cost of 11% kenetic energy compared to the 115 grain bullet.

Personally I think this equates to a little more penetration and about the same amount of damage for the 147 grain bullet to 124 grain bullet comparison, and a little more penetration, with a little less damage to impacted material, for the 147 grain bullet compared to the 115 grain bullet. It might be a, 'big and slow Vs small and fast' contest again. No winners here I'm thinking.

 

[dawgfvr]

Marketing...all marketing and there is another one born every minute to purchase the new/bigger/faster/hyper-penetrating option.


Be accurate...fire fast and often...then pray...while cursing yourself that you do not have a rifle/shotty.

 

[Cerick]

Shooting into ballistic gel would be dandy, if none of us had ribcages or bones for that matter, no?

 

[Socrates]

The above was yesterday at the range. Compare that target to this one, same gun, different ammo:

I really liked the accuracy of the 147's.

 

[nate45]

I really liked the accuracy of the 147's.

The 147 grain is the right projectile for you and your Kahr Socrates, if it is the one you and it shoot the most accurately. Of course it should also function reliably and knowing you I'm sure that it does.

Shooting into ballistic gel would be dandy, if none of us had ribcages or bones for that matter, no?

It is true that projectiles often perform differently after striking bone, clothing and intermediate barriers. However properly calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin, covered with four layers of denim, is the best indicator currently available, of how a projectile will actually perform in living tissue. Remember also that projectiles are recovered from shooting victims and live animals and compared to the those tested in gel and they often look nearly identical.

Below is an informative article about why four layers of denim is used as a barrier and how this testing correlates to actual use. Also I included an excerpt from that article.

Why Four Layers of Denim Cloth?

...the four-layer heavy denim test is NOT intended to simulate any type of clothing; it is merely an engineering evaluation tool to assess the ability of JHP handgun bullets to resist plugging and expand robustly.

Properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is the most accurate realistic soft tissue simulant currently available. It provides a reasonable indication of how a bullet can be expected to perform in soft tissues. All other barrier materials aside, clothing and bone are the primary reasons why a bullet recovered from a human body may not resemble one fired into a block of gelatin.

 

[dirksterg30]

I'm definitely staying with the 115 grain loadings in hollowpoint for the 9mm.

You HAVE to have the speed to get the bullet to mushroom.

Depends on what you mean by speed. Each weight of hollowpoint is designed for a certain velocity range; As long as the hollowpoint is within that velocity range, it should expand. If you push any hollowpoint to fast, it can fragment and underpenetrate; push it too slow and it won't expand.

Here's a link I've found helpful regarding defensive ammo selection:http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

 

[Boats]

I use 147 grain 9mm JHPs for one simple reason--it mimics the successful parameters of the .45ACP's 230gr. JHP in a smaller package.

Its the heaviest projectile in the caliber that comes in a fast enough moving JHP configuration. Having anywhere from 18 to 21 of them on tap doesn't hurt either.

The subsonic 9mm and the .45ACP also share similar recoil impulses, which is a bonus.

 

[Cerick]

The expansion of a round through ballistic gel vs animal may be similar if not the same, but penetration may vary based on bone structures hit.

 

[TacticalDefense1911]

Penetration in jello vs. real world shootings are usually within 1 to 2 inches of each other. Jello is just a way of comparing one bullet vs. another in a controlled environment; its not gospel just a way of comparing different loads against each other.

 

[EdSky]

Socrates, I'm glad to see you like the 147 and it is accurate for you.

I get much tighter groupings with my handloads than with factory ammo like UMC. Personally, I would expect that Federal HST would be a higher quality round than a Russian product like Silver Bear. I think that if you compared a 124 gr HST with a 147 gr HST then it would be a better test of accuracy.

I'm still trying to find the answer to my question whether 147 is a good round for punching holes in paper. And your target shows it is. Now the question is, is it better than using 124? I think it is high time I get in gear, buy some 147 gr bullets, and just load some up.

 

[Socrates]

Glad I could help. Long for caliber bullets tend to make up for minor misalignment, and generally tend to be more accurate then short for caliber bullets. Maybe they have more bearing area, in other words, they have a longer area that contacts the barrel of the gun, and tend to leave in a more consistent manner. I've never confirmed this with 9mm, since my reloading days for that caliber ended in frustration. Loading for a couple HiPowers, Sig 229, IIRC, and a bunch of other 9mm guns, I generally found either the gun, or my loads did not yield accuracy. Also, the strength of the recoil springs varied so much I had a hard time finding a common load, since, for example, the Sig required max loads, and at least 130 ball ammo just to cycle. That was 30 years ago, and, I'm not going to repeat my errors of trying to load 9mm ammo. At the time, 130 grain ball was as heavy a bullet as you could buy, and, that did not seem to increase the bearing surface enough to really make much difference from the lighter bullets, unless you went to 95's, or below.

Still, in REAL calibers, .45 and above, longer bullets have always been more accurate, with the exception of a 45 Detonics Mark VI, that was setup for 200 grain Speer Flying Ashtrays, and, was hyper-accurate with those loads.

The new Detonics, with 45 Super, 230 grains at 1100 fps, seems just as accurate.

I was actually really shocked that the Kahr shot the 147's that well. When I shot them, I was exhausted, and freezing, about 30 degrees with wind chill. I'd been putting as much Silver Bear through the gun as I could, to try and break it in, and, I'd also been shooting the Lil Terror, my 360 PD with 357 mag 148 grains at 1131 fps,
inbetween. There was NO reason for me to shoot half that well, at that time, all things considered. Right after that, I had to quit, because even though the entire range emptied, and I was the only one there, I couldn't load the 9mm into the magazines, frozen, exhausted fingers.

I was both shocked, and delighted with the group out of the Kahr. I will say that what it really made me determined to do is just carry the Detonics whenever it's practical, since I'm so much more comfortable with it, and have so much trigger time in on that particular gun.

 

[tipoc]

I'm still trying to find the answer to my question whether 147 is a good round for punching holes in paper. And your target shows it is. Now the question is, is it better than using 124? I think it is high time I get in gear, buy some 147 gr bullets, and just load some up.

Good idea. Get some and go shooting. It is, after all, the only way to answer your question.

tipoc

 

[Erik]

Another "they are virtually identical, performance wise by design" comment. If I had to buy my own I'd opt for the 147 or 124 +p JHP variety, in that order. I don't, and am happy with the 124 +p variety I am supplied with.