Advantage of the 147 gr. 9mm over the 124?

The cast lead 147gr works great in bullseye competition if that accounts for anything?

Seems everybody is worried about trying to kill somebody

My 9mm 1911 is for paper punching fun.
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Thanks, parisite. I thought that might be the case after seeing some older bullseye shooters with their .38 specials and supers. They tend to shoot very slow rounds, which makes me believe their bullets are as heavy as possible.

Agreed regarding your second point. Not all firearms are for shooting zombies all the time.

I almost got trapped, I was all set to fire off an angry disgruntled post in response to some of the page 1 posts. Then I noticed that the posters may be dead by now, but apparently the thread itself has risen from the grave.
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:p We all browse differently. I often check the date of the first post, then skip until I see a date that approaches this century. Sorry to wake the dead!
 
The cast lead 147gr works great in bullseye competition if that accounts for anything?

Seems everybody is worried about trying to kill somebody

My 9mm 1911 is for paper punching fun.
Click to expand...

Thanks, parisite. I thought that might be the case after seeing some older bullseye shooters with their .38 specials and supers. They tend to shoot very slow rounds, which makes me believe their bullets are as heavy as possible.

Agreed regarding your second point. Not all firearms are for shooting zombies all the time.

I almost got trapped, I was all set to fire off an angry disgruntled post in response to some of the page 1 posts. Then I noticed that the posters may be dead by now, but apparently the thread itself has risen from the grave.
Click to expand...

:p We all browse differently. I often check the date of the first post, then skip until I see a date that approaches this century. Sorry to wake the dead!
 
WC rounds for the .38 Spl. in bullseye shooting tend to be 147 gr. in weight and loaded to 700 fps or so from a 6" barrel. Light in recoil. Standard defense load for the .38 Spl is 158 gr. at between 800-900 fps. from a 4" barrel.

So no. Heavier bullets are not inherently more accurate. A lightly loaded round with minimal recoil is.

tipoc
 
Who cares when the thread was started ?



I buy 9mm, 147 grain bullets 2000 at a time. I shoot a lot of them. Most of my recreational pistol shooting is done with a suppressor so 147s are the way to go. I also have a 9mm AR15 that I shoot 147s out of. The longer barrel will give you 50-100 fps velocity, so you are shooting 147s at a velocity a lot closer to 124 gr. bullet velocity out of a handgun.

Quoted from page 1:

"147-grain: The faddish adoption of the 147-grain subsonic 9mm took more than a decade of street experience to stamp out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't."

Really?
A pistol bullet that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't ?
I got a laugh out of that. You know what ? The 8mm Mauser round out of an MG42 sometimes worked and it sometimes didn't.
 
444 said:
Who cares when the thread was started ?
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OK if you don't , then I won't and lets discuss it.

tulsamal said:
"147-grain: The faddish adoption of the 147-grain subsonic 9mm took more than a decade of street experience to stamp out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't."
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Where did this poster get this bit of nonsense from? I think I can guess.

Here is news for all of you who imagine that the velocity of 9 mm + P rounds somehow gives an edge over standard velocity 9 mm, it doesn't

Service pistol rounds in general do not have the velocity it takes to do any significant damage from the temporary stretch cavity whatsoever.

Handgun rounds are puny, but they do have sufficient penetration to reach and damage the heart/vena cava/aorta/spine and brain. Shot placement in any other area that leads to rapid incapacitation is almost always attributable to psychological reasons.

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg


Any of the above will do virtually the same thing to a human, if they are placed in the appropriate location, heart/vena cava/aorta/spine and brain.

tulsamal said:
And I'm sure it also relates to my dislike of the old .38 Special 158 grain RN lead bullet load. It was such a poor stopper of everything that I never had any faith in it at all. Do you want to turn your hot 9mm into that?
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The failure of the .38 SP 158 grain LRN was primarily due to poor marksmanship, because a 158 grain LRN through the center of the sternum or the teeth would be much, much more effective than a 125 grain full power .357 Magnum in through abdomen or lung.

The 147 grain 9 mm is a fine projectile that penetrates deep and expands well, if it fails it is due primarily to poor marksmanship as is the failure of the .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9 mm, etc. No matter whether they have an expanding projectile or not, if the can penetrate and reach the vitals they can be effectively employed if you do your part and place them in the right location.

For all of those out there reading this who doubt its validity and still cling to the old discredited 'one shot stop' statistics. Let me just ask you this, where are all the statistics of those shot multiple times with .45s and .357s, with buckshot and rifle bullets that kept on trucking? Hum? Those statistics are out there and they are true, only hitting the vitals will lead to rapid incapacitation.

444 said:
The 8mm Mauser round out of an MG42 sometimes worked and it sometimes didn't.
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Truer words were never typed.

Shot placement and penetration they aren't cliches they are the truth and the key to handgun effectivness.
 
One of the confounding things in these discussions, and an inevitable thing, is that bits and pieces of the 9mm story get get pulled out of our memories (things we have heard or read some years back) and though time and developments pass on we still believe them to be true. Keep in mind that over the last 30 years no handgun round has received as much development as the 9mm.

The 147 gr. 9mm round began back in in the early 1970s when the Navy Seals wanted a subsonic round for use in taking out sentries and guard dogs in Viet Nam from their S&W M39 "Hush Puppys". It was first a 158 gr. load. When by the late 70s the Seals transitioned to the MP5 and Uzis for this purpose the 147 gr. load was hit on. This load was made for them by Winchester and was known as the Type L hollowpoint. It went through several years of development to get it to cycle reliably in the MP5 and the Uzi by the early 1980s it was got right.

Now following the Miami shootout, where the 115 gr.+P Silvertip did not stop Platt after entering and exiting his bicep and collapsing his right lung and stopping an inch or so short of his heart, the FBI went to the 147 gr. load that had been developed for the Seals believing it would penetrate more. Many law enforcement agencies followed suit. The 115 gr. load took an undeserved hit.

Troubles with the 147 soon cropped up. Cops around the country were using a wide variety of 9mm handguns set up usually for the standard or +P 115 gr. or 124 gr. loads. Many Depts. found that the 147 gr. loads would not reliably cycle in their guns causing feeding problems. They also found that the bullet itself, developed for the specialized needs of the Seals, either overpenetrated in soft tissue or failed to penetrate hard barriers like glass or auto bodies. The 147 gr. loads developed a bad rap that in some quarters that lasts to this day.

Now the ammo companies responded and by the late 90s had developed the Ranger Talon, the Golden Saber, The Gold Dot, the Hydra Shok and others that improved the expansion and penetration of both the 115 gr. loads, the 124 and the 147. The Silvertip also underwent extensive reworking. In the last 8 years more work has been done.

This is why the Silvertip of 1990 is not the Silvertip of today or even 10 years ago. This is why the 115 gr. +P+ of 15 years ago tended to break apart but no longer does.

This is why tests made in the last 5 years of penetration and expansion of these different loads shows that they tend to perform about the same. A 115 gr. +P+ Ranger will penetrate about the same as a 147 gr. Hydra Shok and expand about the same.

The choice often does come down to shooters choice and how they work in your guns. The +P+ will be a bit harder on a gun and barrel after several thousand rounds than will a standard pressure round. Yep it takes more pressure to get the lighter rounds to penetrate as deeply. No surprise there.

tipoc
 
For myself I like the 124 gr. +P loads from CCI, Cor Bon, or Hornady for self defense. They work well from my guns. But I also shoot only a few hundred rounds of this stuff a year. It ain't cheap.

For plinking and drills purposes ball ammo works well and is inexpensive enough in 124 and especially 115 that I shoot a good deal of that. One of the joys of the 9mm is the lower cost of ammo.

A couple of links for folks to poke around in.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHP and 147 gr Ammo.htm

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1794.htm

http://gigconceptsinc.com/9mmP.html

tipoc
 
Originally Posted by tulsamal
"147-grain: The faddish adoption of the 147-grain subsonic 9mm took more than a decade of street experience to stamp out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't."
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Where did this poster get this bit of nonsense from? I think I can guess.
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There were two problems with the early 147gr loads...

1) Many autoloading pistols would not feed them reliably
2) Most 147gr loads were loaded to lower velocities then they should have been. This led to unreliable performance out of handguns.

There is no doubt that the new 147gr loads are light years ahead of where they were in the late 70's, 80's and even the 90's and they are now starting to prove themselves on the street. 115gr & 124gr. +P & +P+ loads have been proven on the street for a long time now. +P loads have proven themselves and you cant discredit that. When you push a bullet faster it generally expands more rapidly and to a larger diameter and can penetrate to deeper depths even though it expands larger (due to increased energy). There is a reason that +P loads have proven themselves on the street and that many people choose them for LEO & SD loads.
 
TacticalDefense1911 said:
When you push a bullet faster it generally expands more rapidly and to a larger diameter and can penetrate to deeper depths even though it expands larger (due to increased energy).
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What? Where did you come up with this theory?

They do expand more rapidly, but thats all they do.

Look at these Ranger T bullets, the 147 grain standard velocity expanded to .01 of an inch less that the 125 grain .357 Sig and penetrated deeper. If you use the Winchester ammo site comparison tool here, you will see that the 147 grain standard velocity out penetrated the 127 grain +P+ on every test and even expanded more on some of the tests.

Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg


There isn't anything wrong with the 127 grain +P+, or the 124 grain Gold Dot ,or the 115 grain Federal, or whatever, but they do not pack enough velocity to cause significant wound trauma from the temporary stretch cavity. All their increased velocity does is cause them to perform almost as well as the 147 grain does.
 
What? Where did you come up with this theory?
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Not a theory really; its what they do. Here's some data...

115gr Gold Dot standard load

bare; Penetration 11.75" Expansion .690"

124gr standard load
bare; Pen 11.35" Ex .682"

124gr +p
bare; Pen 11.78" Ex .72"

You push the same bullet faster, its generally going to expand larger and more quickly; and here it even penetrated deeper.

If you use the Winchester ammo site comparison tool here, you will see that the 147 grain standard velocity out penetrated the 127 grain +P+ on every test and even expanded more on some of the tests.
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The 127gr load has more energy (or the bullets ability to do work). The only way the 147gr. load can out penetrate the 127gr load is through bullet design which changes the bullets rate of expansion. If two bullets penetrate to the same depth but one expands more rapidly it will create a larger permanent cavity. Just because the 147gr. load out penetrated the 127gr load does not mean that it is a superior load; it just means that it doesnt expand as rapidly.

All their increased velocity does is cause them to perform almost as well as the 147 grain does.
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Lighter +P loads have been the standard by which 9mm loads are measured for years. I dont believe that that 147 grain load has unseated them just yet ;)
 
putting a heavy, slow bullet in a 9mm isn't in my opinion a very good idea, you're not playing to the strength of the caliber

give me a box full of 124 grain hollowpoints any day of any week
 
Perhaps. The HST 147's seem to kick nicely, and, are VERY accurate, out of my Kahr PM9. Since with the mouse gun 9mm, accuracy is huge, I'll take the 147's...
 
Here's some data...
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Source?

You push the same bullet faster, its generally going to expand larger and more quickly; and here it even penetrated deeper.
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I thought it was 147 vs 124, not 124 vs 124 +P.


The 127gr load has more energy (or the bullets ability to do work). The only way the 147gr. load can out penetrate the 127gr load is through bullet design which changes the bullets rate of expansion. If two bullets penetrate to the same depth but one expands more rapidly it will create a larger permanent cavity. Just because the 147gr. load out penetrated the 127gr load does not mean that it is a superior load; it just means that it doesnt expand as rapidly.
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Instead of going back and forth with point counter point, lets get right down to it.

Are you saying that if two similar humans were shot in a nearly identical spot in the torso, one with the 147 grain Ranger 'T' and one with the 127 grain Ranger 'T' +P+, that there would be a dramatic difference in the result? And furthermore that a forensic pathologist could tell the difference in the wound channels?

If that is what you are saying I would be very interested in seeing your supporting evidence.
 
Source?
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Testing was done by one of the moderators on stoppingpower.net (they've shot lots of jello and know how it is done so I trust their results)

I thought it was 147 vs 124, not 124 vs 124 +P.
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Since Speer uses the same 124gr. bullet for their 124gr standard pressure load and the 124gr +P load it is a very good comparison to show what the same bulle will do when fired at a higher velocity.

Are you saying that if two similar humans were shot in a nearly identical spot in the torso, one with the 147 grain Ranger 'T' and one with the 127 grain Ranger 'T' +P+, that there would be a dramatic difference in the result?
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No, not at all and I'm not trying to make you, or anyone else change what load you carry. All I'm saying is that the mid-range +P loads play to the 9mm strenght which is high velocity and they have a proven track record on the street. This statement of yours
All their increased velocity does is cause them to perform almost as well as the 147 grain does.
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is what we are talking about. There are more parts to the equation then total penetration and total expansion; it does not tell the whole story; rate of expansion is another part that can drastically change permanent cavity volume. Many of the new 147gr. loads work just fine and there is nothing wrong in carrying them but I question your statement that they outperform lighter +P loads which have a proven track record.
 
There are more parts to the equation then total penetration and total expansion; it does not tell the whole story; rate of expansion is another part that can drastically change permanent cavity volume. Many of the new 147gr. loads work just fine and there is nothing wrong in carrying them but I question your statement that they outperform lighter +P loads which have a proven track record.
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Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof. If you are going to claim that a +P 115, 124, etc 9 mm makes a drastically different permanent wound channel, you really should provide some evidence to back that up. All testing I've seen has shown that modern premium HP ammo offers very similar performance in test media, with minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects. An increase in bullet size and mass was the only thing that caused a larger permanent cavity.

The 115, 124, 127 9 mm +P and +P+ HP rounds work just fine, but the result they produce is not significantly different from the result a 9 mm 147 grain HP round produces.

nate45 said:
All their increased velocity does is cause them to perform almost as well as the 147 grain does.
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Its very true that ultimate penetration is not the end all be all. So seeing as how I'm not an advocate for any one praticular 9 mm projectile weight over another; I will amend that statement to say: All that their increased velocity does is cause them to perform as well as the standard velocity 147 does.

In 9 mm the 115, 124, 127 and the 147 are all adequate and acceptable choices, the differences in their terminal performance is negligible.
 
The 9mm, 38, etc. are what I call "leave me alone guns"; ( when approached by a BG, you pull those guns and say leave me alone or I might kill you or at least hurt you bad), I wouldn't take any one of them to a gun fight if I had the choice, a .357 maybe. Minimum would be a 45 ACP to a gun fight, and preferably something bigger. Haveing said that, I wouldn't want to be shot by a 9mm or anything else for that matter.
 
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