Advantage of the 147 gr. 9mm over the 124?

You are kidding, right? A bullet through the heart "might" have worked? The subject shot and killed two FBI agents several minutes after he was shot. Are you telling us that a guy with a slug in his heart can go on for minutes?
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No, I'm not kidding. Not at all.

People have been shot in the heart and SURVIVED.

Yes, people can get shot in the heart and go on for minutes. Particularly if they are very determined and have a good dose of adrenaline working before they get shot.

The ONLY thing that will reliably "stop a person cold" is a shot that causes significant destruction to the central nervous system (upper spine and/or brain). This has been repeatedly borne out in studies.

Other shots kill through blood loss which takes time. The amount of time it takes depends on the person's determination, the amount of adrenaline they have working before the injury, their tolerance of pain, their level of physical fitness, the amount of blood being lost, etc., etc.

Ask any hunter with a good bit of experience and they'll tell you that a heart shot doesn't always stop an animal cold. It'll kill them, but they may not die when you want them to.

BTW, from the time Platt was shot until his last murder took place was at most 1-1.5 minutes according to the analyses I have seen. The entire gunfight from the first shot to the last shot took only four minutes. The hit in question happened 1.5 minutes into the fight, and Platt committed his last murder about 1.5-2 minutes before the end of the gunfight.
 
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I have a question about the following

"Its scallop-jacketed hollowpoint tended to open and shed fragments to the side like little razor blades while the still-expanding core of the bullet kept going"

I have always thought and have read that the better bullet is the one that retains the most weight. the reasion for that is in the act of taring apart that energy is lost. Not imparted into the target (BG) but lost in the mechanics of coming apart.
I know this is true for rifle bullets and would have thought that it would be true for pistol. Also the little razor plades fragments have so little mass that there movement and penetration would be minimal.
 
I have always thought and have read that the better bullet is the one that retains the most weight. the reasion for that is in the act of taring apart that energy is lost. Not imparted into the target (BG) but lost in the mechanics of coming apart.
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I think we are spoiled today! Back "in the day" of the hot Federal .357 Magnum load, it wasn't really possible to have a mass produced bullet that would give us the explosive expansion that we wanted and still hold together 100%. The Federal 125 grain load did hold onto its core but little pieces of the expanded sections would break off. I'm sure it made things worse in the emergency room but I agree it shouldn't/wouldn't make much difference in stopping power right there in the street. It did make you realize the sheer power of the load when you looked at an X-Ray and saw the tissue destruction and the little chunks of jacket strewn the full length!

Today we finally have bullets that really can fully expand and still stay together to give us the deeper penetration most of us want.

As I type this though, I realize that my house gun is a Ruger SS Security Six with six inch barrel. I've had it since I turned 21 back in 1982. And it is still loaded with the Federal "cop load." I guess I still have a lot of confidence in it even if it doesn't have the coolest new Gold Dot bullet in it!

Gregg
 
And I'm sure it also relates to my dislike of the old .38 Special 158 grain RN lead bullet load. It was such a poor stopper of everything that I never had any faith in it at all. Do you want to turn your hot 9mm into that?
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FWIW, the 38special load you cite was a poor stopper because it was roundnosed, not because of it's weight.

Chris
 
"FWIW, the 38special load you cite was a poor stopper because it was roundnosed, not because of it's weight."

So true. If you were to just change the shape of the bullet from a round nose to a semi-wadcutter and keep the weight and velocity the same, the effectiveness goes way up. If you were then to bump up the performance just a bit (.38 Spl +p isn't that much hotter) and make that SWC a hollow point, you've got one of the best proven man stoppers going: the "FBI Load". For that matter, the only real negatives about that loading is that it does have a bit more recoil than the lighter +p JHP's and it is known for lead fouling -- neither of which are that big of a deal in a SD situation.
 
One other nice thing about 147 grainers that hasn't been mentioned is that they are often standard pressure loads. You get terminal performance similar to the 124 grain +P and +P+ rounds without the higher chamber pressures.

My own research has indicated that the 147 grainers have more reliable performance than the lighter faster rounds. Maybe it is because they are often newer designs or maybe it is because you don't lose bullet weight with range like you lose velocity. Dunno, but they're a safe bet that the very least.

The .357 Magnum got its reputation as a one shot stopper with the 125 grain bullet.
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Yes but the only reason they were using the 125 was that they couldn't get the 158s to expand properly at the time. The soft lead of the FBI load wouldn't work at .357 velocities and the other bullets expanded unreliably. Now they can.
 
"FWIW, the 38special load you cite was a poor stopper because it was roundnosed, not because of it's weight."

So true. If you were to just change the shape of the bullet from a round nose to a semi-wadcutter and keep the weight and velocity the same, the effectiveness goes way up. If you were then to bump up the performance just a bit (.38 Spl +p isn't that much hotter) and make that SWC a hollow point, you've got one of the best proven man stoppers going: the "FBI Load".
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I'm not buying it. Of course my experience with the round comes from actually being out in the field shooting it. I used to take a Charter Arms Undercover out loaded with those rounds and shoot them at 55 gallon drums. You would get dents but not even CLOSE to penetration. Changing the bullet shape wouldn't have made any difference to that. Switch to a Browning Hi Power and suddenly the barrel would start getting holes in it.

I realize that the RN really was a crappy design and yes, a flat nose will help. So it goes from a 0 to a 1. It's still has very little in the way of stopping power. You might very well kill somebody with it but they just might beat you to death before they bled out. And the velocity numbers say there IS a good sized difference between the old NYC snub load and the ineffective 158 grain RNL. Winchester says right on their website that the inferior load is rated at 755 fps. The 158 grain LHP +P is rated at 890 fps. That's just under 18% faster. You can tell when you fire them and you can sure tell when you hit something with them.

Gregg
 
Yes but the only reason they were using the 125 was that they couldn't get the 158s to expand properly at the time. The soft lead of the FBI load wouldn't work at .357 velocities and the other bullets expanded unreliably. Now they can.
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I don't know if I believe that or not. The velocities of the .357 Magnum usually made expansion rather easy to achieve. But let's say you are right. Let's say you could take a 158 grain JHP bullet today and get performance out of a four inch barrel that equals the expansion and penetration of the 125 grain JHP. (I'm going to be reluctant to believe you will have equal shock from a slower bullet but let's leave that by the side.)

The question becomes: why would you want to do that? (Sort of the same question I ask about heavy bullet 9mm loads!) The 125 grain bullet worked GREAT in the field. It didn't overpenetrate OR underpenetrate. So we get equal performance out of a 158 grain JHP? What good would that be? Even assuming we don't get excessive penetration, why would we want to increase the recoil impulse? The 125 grain loads have a bunch of blast but you can pull the gun back down. A hot 158 grain load is going to go higher in the sky with each shot. Equal performance on target. Slower repeat shots with the heavier weight bullets. Harder to qualify with and keeps some officers from training as much as they should. What's the advantage again?

Gregg
 
Most of the articles/infomation cited is from 2002...rather dated

At one time, the better 9mm loads did rely on velocity to perform

But times have changed...the 147 gr loadings in standaard pressure work very well.

Dr. Gary Roberts had some good advice on another board



Pick the 147 gr if you answer yes to any of the questions below:

Is higher than standard pressure an issue for you?

Is accelerated wear of your weapon an issue for you?

Are you going to shoot through intermediate barriers?

-----------------------

Otherwise, pick:

The one your agency issues for free.

The one that is most reliable and accurate in YOUR pistol and best meets your expected engagement scenarios.

The one you can buy in adequate quantity (minimum 1000 rounds).
 
Pick the 147 gr if you answer yes to any of the questions below:
Is higher than standard pressure an issue for you?
Is accelerated wear of your weapon an issue for you?
Are you going to shoot through intermediate barriers?
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Nope. I'm sorry, but there is simply no evidence to support any claims that attempt to make the 147gr choice anywhere near that cut and dried.

Penetration information posted on this thread demonstrates handily that standard pressure 124 grain loadings can hold their own in terms of penetration when compared to the 147 grain loadings.

There is simply no conclusive data to support the fact that you have to go to +P in 124gr 9mm to equal 147gr penetration numbers with modern premium self-defense ammunition.
 
Penetration information posted on this thread demonstrates handily that standard pressure 124 grain loadings can hold their own in terms of penetration when compared to the 147 grain loadings.

There is simply no conclusive data to support the fact that you have to go to +P in 124gr 9mm to equal 147gr penetration numbers with modern premium self-defense ammunition.
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And if you really want top results including deep penetration but you don't want to use +P ammo, you could always just use a .357 SIG! There is no +P there, it is all "standard pressure." And yet you are adding another 100-150 fps on top of a 9mm +P+ round.

Gregg
 
lotsa poop floatin' by here.......

LA Cop-chick shot through heart by 357 Magnum-toting gang-punk; chased him down (running) and ended his stupid wasted life.........Cop-chick survived.

Factoid-type info = civilian encounters are normally (but NOT always) face-to-face at close distance, normally.
Cop-type encounters can be: cop-to-car, cop-to-door, cop behind cover engaging BG behind cover, etc...

Have the data on how many FBI encounters with BGs in car?

115g JHP, regardless of pressure (how many you plan on shooting?), can offer sufficient penetration. Sufficient.
124/125g? Same.
147g?
Plenty of penetration, can be constructed to expand rapidly and properly, yet not with the impact velocity of the lighter bullets. Think that impact velocity doesn't matter?

Oh, my. Science often means observing and collecting data; data suggests a 115g/124g .355" JHP can certainly 'do the job'.
But so can the 147g, ay? :confused:



Me? In MY 9x19 Witness my 115g JHP launches at over 1400fps; works for me. But so does my 230g Golden Saber at 800fps.....
 
What advantage does the 147 gr. round have over the 124 gr. round?
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The OP asked a question I am trying to get an answer to as well. His question doesn't ask "when shooting at a human target" and mine definitely doesn't.

I'd like to know if there is any advantage to shooting 147 gr. rounds at targets? Does the momentum make for more accurate groupings? Are there any other factors that add-to or takeaway-from shooting accuracy?

If 147 gr. rounds are going to beat up my pistol more then that is a big consideration, but I am not talking about +P or +P+ loads, just Plane Jane.

Thanks
 
I can't think of a reason

the heavier bullets would group better, unless it's just that you and your gun shoot them better. Which you and it may well do... guns are weird that way.

Typically, heavier, slower bullets are easier on revolvers. Whether that's true in brass-chuckers, I don't know, but it probably is. A slower acceleration curve, so the force is applied to the gun over more time... smaller peaks. This should help things live longer, regardless of the platform.

But the only autoloader I own is a .22, so take that for what little it may be worth.

--Shannon
 
my understanding is that lighter bullets produce less recoil and more speed ... I try to keep my bullet weights for carry in the middle range; I like the 125 ...
 
my understanding is that lighter bullets produce less recoil and more speed ... I try to keep my bullet weights for carry in the middle range; I like the 125 ...
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This is not the only post about the 125 gr. bullet. What difference can there be between the 124gr. and 125gr.?:confused: 1 measly grain! Personally, I don't think I have ever even seen 125gr. 9mm
 
I almost got trapped, I was all set to fire off an angry disgruntled post in response to some of the page 1 posts. Then I noticed that the posters may be dead by now, but apparently the thread itself has risen from the grave.
 
The cast lead 147gr works great in bullseye competition if that accounts for anything?

Seems everybody is worried about trying to kill somebody:confused:

My 9mm 1911 is for paper punching fun.;)
 
Lighter +P loads and heavier 147gr. standard pressure loads generally accomplish the same task through different means. Most self defense ammunition today is designed to penetrate to a certain depth regardless of bullet weight. This is accomplished through bullet design and velocity. Higher velocity loads like the 115gr. and 124gr. +P loads are higher energy loads that typically expand more rapidly (due to higher velocities and bullet design) causing a slightly larger permanant cavity since the bullet reaches a larger size earlier in the penetration in comparison to a 147gr. load. The lower energy 147gr. loads are able to reach the same depths as the higher energy +P loading due to bullet design and controlled expansion.

I see it this way. If you want to carry a standard pressure load, carry a 147gr. load (the Speer and Federal HST 147gr. loads are among the best). If you and your gun can handle +P then carry a 115gr or 124gr +P load; the Federal 115gr. 9PBLE +P+, Corbon 115gr +P jhp, Speer 124gr. +P and Winchester 127gr. +P+ have all proven themselves in the real world as well as others. They just accomplish their goals in different ways. Personally, I like mid-weight 124gr +P loads FWIW.
 
I almost got trapped, I was all set to fire off an angry disgruntled post in response to some of the page 1 posts. Then I noticed that the posters may be dead by now, but apparently the thread itself has risen from the grave.
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LOL! I need to start reading when these threads were started before I get involved :p
 
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