Advantage of the 147 gr. 9mm over the 124?

availability as subsonic ammo (needed for SOME weapons)
It penetrates more, on average (All things being equal, as in pressure)
It hits higher, leaving the barrel more slowly and enjoying more of the recoil than a faster and lighter weight projectile
 
I personally don't think it has any advantage at all. Just think it's the wrong idea. The 9mm round is effective because of velocity. It doesn't make any sense to me to drop down that far just to gain some extra weight.

And I'm sure it also relates to my dislike of the old .38 Special 158 grain RN lead bullet load. It was such a poor stopper of everything that I never had any faith in it at all. Do you want to turn your hot 9mm into that?

There is always a backlash when something doesn't work. And usually the backlash goes too far. The 9mm with really hot and soft JHP's was seen as having penetration that was too shallow. We would be talking 115 grain and lighter here. And really soft and easy to expand HP's like Silvertips. So some people thought the thing to do was go heavier. But they went (IMO) way too far by going to 147 grain. A 124 or 125 grain should work great. Actually I would think a modern 115 grain JHP would be perfectly fine. Something like a Gold Dot or Golden Saber. They expand but they stay together. And they give you that full FBI penetration.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648

9mm

147-grain: The faddish adoption of the 147-grain subsonic 9mm took more than a decade of street experience to stamp out. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I saw cases where even the vaunted Black Talon overpenetrated and failed to do the job. The great majority of departments that issued it, including its parent agency, the FBI, have now either gone to .40s, .45s or .357 SIGs, or have gone to a more effective, lighter bullet/higher velocity 9mm round. In good conscience, I cannot recommend any 147-grain subsonic 9mm round for self-defense or police service.

+/-125-grain: Caught between cops who believed in Fackler (slow 147-grain) and those who believed in Marshall (fast 115-grain), many police decision-makers have decided to split the difference and go with something in the mid 120-grain range. The best results have been with the hot +P and +P+ loads at around 1,250 ft.sec. NYPD adopted the hot CCI Gold Dot 124-grain and reports excellent street results. Denver PD has adopted the same round for its officers who choose the 9mm from the optional weapon list.

Winchester's Ranger Talon 127-grain +P+ has also earned an excellent reputation. Forward-thinking, research-intensive departments, such as the San Bernardino County (CA) Sheriff's Department, have adopted it for deputies who carry 9mms. But, as noted, the Ranger Talon series is sold only to law-enforcement agencies.

115-grain: Federal's 9BP, a 115-grain at 1,160 fps, is the one standard pressure 9mm load that has been around for roughly a quarter century without any horror stories of stopping failures. Every shooting with it that I know of has resulted in a stopped offender, usually with mushroomed bullets lodged in the far side of the body. Last I knew, New Jersey State Police (HK P7M8) and Philadelphia PD (Glock 19s) were still using it with good results.

However, the best results in this grain weight, and indeed in the caliber, have been logged with the Illinois State Police Load. A 115-grain JHP at 1,300 to 1,350 fps, it is available to police from Winchester, Federal and Remington; and to civilians from Pro-Load, Black Hills and others. When you see an autopsy report that indicates the cause of death as "cardiac maceration," and there was only one 9mm round fired, you can be pretty sure it was one of these rounds. When in doubt: Pro-Load Tactical (1st choice) or Federal 9BP. 115-grain JHP
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The 147 grain 9 mm has a practicle purpose. When used in a subgun it can be suppresed and it also makes for great foder when shooting subgun matches (steel plates fall quicker).

Subguns though are no longer police favorites, everyone wants M4s.

25
 
From FBI tests (40 round total, 5 rounds each bare gel, through auto glass and heavy cloth at 10 ft and 20 yds, steel, wallboard, and plywood):

Average penetration/expansion, success rate (percent at least 12 inches):

124g Hydra-Shok 14.67/.485/82.5% (33 of 40)
147g Hydra-Shok 17.21/.506/82.5%
147g Winchester JHP 13.99/.457/62.5% (25 of 40)
115g Silvertip 11.37/.542/35% (14 of 40)
145g .357 Mag Silvertip 13.76/.499/82.5%

Speer Gold Dots:

147g GD 14.94/.509
124g GD 16.98/.479
 
That over 17 inches from the heavy HydraShok is scary.

I'm not sure what the "success" percentage is about? Is it just "did you penetrate >12" or what? So a 9mm FMJ would score 100%?

My "gut" feeling is that the numbers as far as penetration and expansion aren't telling us everything. I've shot medium size animals with top level 147 grain loads and with premium 115-125 grain loads. I got more "slam them to the ground" results from the faster rounds. The 147's wanted to overpenetrate. And it's not just that; the slower round just doesn't seem to "shock" the critter the way a Corbon 125 grain +P round does.

And it doesn't seem to coincide with what we know historically about other rounds. The .357 Magnum got its reputation as a one shot stopper with the 125 grain bullet. We all know a .357 Magnum can drive a 147 grain bullet much faster than a 9mm ever could but most people didn't think those would work as well. There was some "magic combination" of bullet diameter, construction, weight, and velocity that "just worked." Take the same 147 grain bullet, subtract several hundred feet per second, and shove it out of a 9mm, I don't know why it would be some kind of super stopping round! Not out of a pistol anyway. A carbine is possibly another story.

Gregg
 
I can see an advantage in LE work but not necessarily for civilian SD purposes. The 147 tends to penetrate better and hold together better when passing through common barriers typically involved with LE shootings. Simply put, a 147gr. is going to have a better chance of punching through a car door or windshield and hitting the BG than a 124gr. load will. The 124gr. are a good choice for SD from a non-LE standpoint. 124gr. JHP tend to penetrate at least 12" and offer good expansion and velocity. They are perfectly fine and are a much better overall choice than the 115gr. offerings.
 
The 147s penetrate people better, which is not really a great idea from a safety and liability perspective.
They certainly don't penetrate auto body metal very well and that's a serious problem for cops.

The 127 +P+ may be the best out there. Still, I carry 9PBLE (115gr +P+) in my Glock and BHP. I've been known to carry 90gr Cor Bon (@ over 1400 fps) in the BHP, too and didn't feel undergunned at all.


John
Cape Canaveral
 
The 127 +P+ may be the best out there. Still, I carry 9PBLE (115gr +P+) in my Glock and BHP. I've been known to carry 90gr Cor Bon (@ over 1400 fps) in the BHP, too and didn't feel undergunned at all.
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If you're happy with 9" of penetration, thats wonderful. Last I checked the 147gr. Winchester Ranger was penetrating better and expanding equally if not better than the 127 +p+ in both bare and clothed gelatin. It fared much better than the +p+ load after barriers such as glass and sheet-metal. I agree though, the 127gr +p+ load is excellent but from what I've seen, no better than some of the premium 147gr. loads available today. The 90gr. Corbon load is a lousy if not dangerous choice for SD use. It probably penetrates less than 8", which is definitely not good. What 9mm load penetrates auto bodies better than the 147gr loads. I'm very curious. For civilian SD roles the 124gr. loads can't be beat. Its right in between the light-fast and slow-heavy loads. A very good compromise.

The 147s penetrate people better, which is not really a great idea from a safety and liability perspective.
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Can you cite one example of a quality JHP over-penetrating and injuring or killing another bystander? 80% of shots fired in gun-fights are complete misses. These missed shots are far more dangerous than a round that might over-penetrate while leaving the BG at maybe 300fps. In the rare instance that a bullet does-overpenetrate how much velocity and energy will have left? Not much. I can, however, certainly cite some examples of LEO's who lost their lives due to shallow ammo penetration.
 
I can, however, certainly cite some examples of LEO's who lost their lives due to shallow ammo penetration.
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Just out of curiosity, I wouldn't mind knowing about those examples.
 
I can see an advantage in LE work but not necessarily for civilian SD purposes. The 147 tends to penetrate better and hold together better when passing through common barriers typically involved with LE shootings.
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Barrier penetration is more suitable to law enforcement? Come on. If an evil doer hides behind the refrigerator while busting caps, I’m not going to wait for he or she to expose themselves. I want something that can penetrate the side of the refrigerator, go through approx.4 to 6 inches of leftover General Tso’s chicken, possibly 4 inches of soymilk and exit the other side. Forget the gelatin. Has anybody got any data on Sony Trinitron penetration? A heavy 9mm might not be enough to deal with the typical barriers found in a person's house.

I don’t buy into the overpenetration thing either. You should always be aware of your target and what is beyond your target, even in a life or death situation. I would never count on my target to stop a bullet. I'm prone to missing moving targets.
 
Just out of curiosity, I wouldn't mind knowing about those examples.
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Well we all know of the famous Miami FBI shootout, I would say that incident resulted the way it did due to both poor decisions as well as shallow ammo penetration. Simply put, if that round had penetrated 2" more the BG would have been out cold. There is no arguing that. If a 147gr. JHP had been used instead, it would have penetrated better and killed the BG very quickly.

The link posted below pretty much sums up this whole topic. 9mm loads of 115gr. or less offer inadequate penetration. Its that simple. While some 115gr. loads due offer pretty good penetration, most of them don't. One guy was shot 27 times with 115gr. Win STs and didn't go down due to insufficient penetration. If someone calls this good performance, sorry for them. 90gr. bullets using very fragile HP designs are even worse. You never know who will attack you. He could be 150lbs or 300lbs.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm
 
To answer the original question, 147grn loads seem to penetrate better than lighter ones and are also usually the most accurate. The reason for this is that the heavier bullets have more momentum and are therefore less likely to change direction should they impact bone or some other hard object. They are more accurate because the heavier weight requires a longer bullet that therefore has more contact with the rifling. I believe the failures of the 147 grn loads were due not to inadequate penetration but to failure to expand. The velocities don't seem to be enough to make the bullet expand as reliably as the lighter loadings. Personally, I prefer 125grn loadings for the 9mm: the best balance of velocity and penetration.
 
So, what are you suggesting in its place?
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I was pretty careful not to suggest anything in its place. I was strongly suggesting that we carefully consider just how many barriers are in our home before we decide that deep penetrating bullets are only for law enforcement.
 
Simply put, if that round had penetrated 2" more the BG would have been out cold. There is no arguing that.
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That is simply not true. If it had penetrated more, it might have reached the BG's heart which would certainly NOT have put him out cold. Heart shots do not put people out cold, that is a well established fact. It might have made him bleed out faster, but how much faster is very hard to estimate.

Your link provides some good reasons not to use the 115gr Winchester STHP, but no examples of law enforcement officers who have lost their lives due to shallow ammo penetration.

Also, you might want to take a look at MikeORick's post earlier on this thread.

Ranked by penetration from deepest to shallowest, the results when you compare the 124 bullet weight to the 147 bullet weight are as follows.

147
124
147
124
147

Not so surprising that the results can't be predicted by bullet weight--since premium ammunition these days is designed to penetrate to "ideal" depth. Pretty much independent of caliber or bullet weight as long as one doesn't go to extremes. (e.g. it's not possible to get some of the pocket calibers to penetrate deeply if you want any expansion at all.)

While the 115gr ammunition may not be a great choice--(although most of the negative information you provide centers around the STHP rather than 115gr ammo in general) there's not much evidence to support that the 147gr round is significantly better than the 124gr round. Which was the original bullet weight for the caliber...
 
You are kidding, right? A bullet through the heart "might" have worked? The subject shot and killed two FBI agents several minutes after he was shot. Are you telling us that a guy with a slug in his heart can go on for minutes?
 
I do wonder about one thing. And, unlike a lawyer, I don't know the answer before I ask the question. If a 147 grain JHP expands to over .50 caliber and yet penetrates to 14-17" and yet it does it at lower velocity, what does that tell us about the wound profile? Is it expanding "further in?" So the wound cavity would be deeper. Now we know a super lightweight or lightly constructed bullet can expand too fast and not get deep enough. I just wonder if the 147 grain bullet is going to give us our expansion "in the middle." It's nice to have all that penetration for the rare and difficult shots but what about the most common one: straight on into the chest? It isn't going to do us any good if the 147 grain exits the back and has barely started to expand at that point.

I ask this mostly because it reminds me of the whole .357 Magnum history. There was just something about the 125 grain JHP at 1450 fps. Lighter didn't go deep enough. Heavier penetrated in too far without enough expansion in the center of the chest region.

Gregg

.357 Magnum

125 grain: Let's save some time here. Ray Chapman used to say that the only reason for putting up with the nasty recoil, muzzle flash and deafening blast of the .357 Magnum cartridge was the tremendous stopping power of the 125-grain hollowpoint. Chapman was probably right.

Remington led the way on this more than a quarter century ago with a bullet that screamed out of a 4-inch barrel at as much as 1,450 fps. Its scallop-jacketed hollowpoint tended to open and shed fragments to the side like little razor blades while the still-expanding core of the bullet kept going. Federal's answer was to use a wider-mouth hollowpoint for super-fast expansion. In both cases, the rounds almost never over penetrate, and Indianapolis Police Department reported that in more than 200 shootings there was never an effective return of fire by a perpetrator after taking a solid hit with one. Kentucky State Troopers had so many one-shot stops with it, even with occasional non-centered hits, that they referred to the 125-grain Magnum as "the magic bullet." Texas state troopers said they missed the "lightning bolt effect" of these rounds after they went to .45s, which made the troopers eager to adopt the .357 SIG with similar ballistics.

Personally, I could never see much difference between the Remington and the Federal in flesh, or for that matter, their Winchester and CCI counterparts. But there's no question: Ed Sanow was right when he called the 125-grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint .357 Magnum the "king of the street." It delivered a destruction cone optimized for erect bipeds, which is why it outperformed much more potent hunting rounds such as the .41 and .44 Magnum when used in the anti-personnel function. The bigger Magnums frequently spent a lot of their energy exiting the offender's body and looking for a baby carriage on the other side. The 125-grain .357 dumped all its energy in a massively wide path between the front and the back of the offender's torso. Lighter .357 rounds might not go deep enough, and heavier ones often overpenetrated, but the 125-grain hollowpoint was ideal for its purpose at .357 Magnum velocity. When in doubt: 125-grain Remington or Federal semi-jacketed hollowpoint.
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918V

It's possible. Many years ago I tracked a deer my father shot with a 25-06. I know, different gun, but same basics. The deer never dropped, but ran 200 yards on pure adrenaline before finally piling up. When opened up, there was no heart. It exploded when the bullet zipped through.
 
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