Active shooter scenario in a public place (Oregon mall)

I once heard an assessment of the Paduka Kentucky school shootings. The assessment was done by a PHD in psychology from Arkansas College. He was also a retired Army Infantry LTC and and a combat veteran.

For those of you who do not remember this 1997 shooting, I have posted the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_High_School_shooting

The shooter fired 8 rounds and killed three and wounded five. All of the victims were moving. His actual shooting experience was minimal but, he had spent hours playing video games.

The LTCs major point was that in that situation running was what drew the shooters attention.

Based on his assessment, I think the best bet is to move away from shooting low and cautiously. Try not to draw attention to your self and chargees.

The advice about going into a store and using the back exit or a service entrance to evacuate is outstanding. If the attack is a coordinated terrorist action then the main exits will be covered by bg and or an IED.

If armed, I would (probably) not engage a shooter unless directly confronted.

If forced to confront a shooter(s), I would be in fear of the responding LEOs.

Some suggestions from our experienced LEOs on how to handle a post engagement would be good at this point.
 
Bozzcock said:
BTW the news mentioned that employees were trained to respond to this type of situation and that might have saved lives.
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Reports on the CNN website say that svral mall security guard reportedly ran up and down the mall telling people get down and shepherding them through exits.

While mall ninjas get a lot of grief here, that seems like a pretty good response from a group of guys armned with nothing more than radios and harsh language.
 
If you don't have the skillset to shoot a moving target, at distance, while that moving target is surrounded by multiple, moving, screaming innocent others ... well, if you don't have the skills, don't make a mental plan that depends on you having those skills.

If you don't routinely carry a tool that would make that kind of shot possible ... again, if you don't routinely have that tool with you, don't make a mental plan that would depend upon you having that tool with you.

If you don't have the physical skills that would help you tackle and prevail against a healthy, adrenalized, aggressive young man, don't make a mental plan that depends on you having those skills.

If the thought of running away without doing something bothers you, and if you agree that these types of events are in fact possible, maybe it's time you did the work to get the skills you anticipate you might need in order to make that desire actually mean something.

pax
 
My primary goal would be to move people away from danger rather than attempting to neutralize a shooter(s). Only drawing my weapon if absolutely necessary to the safety of myself and others in my immediate surroundings. As the odds of a stray round hitting an innocent person are fairly high in such a populated area. As well as the danger of being perceived as a threat yourself by drawing your weapon. There is really no good outcome to such an event, only ones with less fatalities. My rifle without me is useless, without my rifle i am useless. Dont put yourself in unnecessary danger to be the hero. Regardless of how well trained you think you are, it is the hits that count, and any misses can result in civilian deaths. Weigh your options and remember you are also a civilian (most likely). Im not a police officer, my training was in Ft Benning and the Ranger in me tells me save who you can who you cant, you cant, may god be with them.

Also there is no amount of training to prepare you for the real thing, you think your ready until you deploy, then its a whole different game. Your training can teach you how to survive, but not how to thrive.
 
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I hate to sound like a sheeple, but there is no 'real' planning for this case.
IMHO, it's like planning for a meteor strike. You'll either be in the right place to help somebody, be the target yourself, have the drop, or what have you.
We can only be aware of our surroundings at all times and hopefully be able to 'do' something correctly when/if the time comes because we're always running scenarios through our minds every time we go anywhere. I do, but I also know I'm a good tight friend of Murphy. I think we're bedfellows sometimes.
 
so if you had to engage or chose to engage the mall shooter, would it not be ideal to reholster your weapon immediately after the threat is stopped?

to break this down; realistically your either going to be immediately involved or your going to have to make a choice to get involved and engage or retreat. The latter affords your best bet to retreat to safety there is no need to draw any weapon putting you in jeopardy of being mistaken by LE or other CCW civilians.
 
Oh yes, reholster immediately if the threat is over. IF, you removed the threat, try to get anybody that's not running from you to secure that immediate area and wait for PD. Have them help keep people away from where you were, where the shooter is, and try to get calm again. Don't touch anything, raise hands when PD arrive and tell them who you are, and where your holstered gun is, etc.
Odds are, you'll be treated fine.

Of course, if you're in NYC, Chicago, and your bravery saved the Mayor, you'll still get life, just for saving lives. :eek:Go figure.:eek:
 
My very general plan if something like this happens near me:

1) If escape is an option, I would get out of the building as quickly as possible, by whatever route seemed safest and most do-able, including exits marked "alarm will sound" or "employees only." Once outside, I would get in my car and drive away. I would not stand around outside the building with the crowd waiting to see what happened next, because flying bullets don't respect police tape.

2) If I could not get out of the area, I would find a small, controllable area where I could hunker down -- a bathroom with a door, a changing room, a supply closet, a break room. I would shove anything up against the door that I could, then I would train my gun on the door and await events.

3) On my way to either type of safety, I would push - shove - grab - pull as many people to safety with me as I could, waking up the ones that were frozen, but I would not stop to argue or plead. Exception: family members. I would do whatever it took to get a family member to safety, and I would not leave someone I love behind.

4) If, on my way to safety, I saw the bad guy as he was in the very act of killing innocent others -- which means and if, only if, I could see and clearly identify that he was in fact the bad guy, and not a plainclothes or off-duty officer or a good citizen who was shooting the real bad guy -- and if I reasonably believed I could take that shot without endangering others (more than they were already in danger) then I would take the shot. Otherwise, I would not.

But it's far more likely I'd be among those who flee the scene or hid in a closet, because I'm not going to go looking for the killer. I will do what it takes to save myself, my family, and those immediately around me, but running toward danger is above my pay grade.

pax
 
I could see and clearly identify that he was in fact the bad guy, and not a plainclothes or off-duty officer or a good citizen who was shooting the real bad guy
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I wish there was some secrete CCW code that identifies us, like I'm here your here and no matter what goes down I've ID'd you and will not shoot.

sorry for that side topic,
There are so many variables here but in general my plan is to get myself and loved ones to safety and help as many along the way. If the situation was in my face the choice is obvious, but otherwise removing myself and helping others is the best plan.

I think this was a good thread to bring up because it highlighted for me anyways the importance of keeping concealed unless there is no choice. I never gave much thought about what it looks like to others to draw and defend yourself in a mass shooting, its something to think about. I think if I had to defend myself I would reholster to concealed condition immediately then either call the police and identify myself or continue any exit strategy (especially if there 'might be other criminals) then call.
 
I could see and clearly identify that he was in fact the bad guy, and not a plainclothes or off-duty officer or a good citizen who was shooting the real bad guy
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Probably the gun shots in the background, and not the guy in front of you looking toward the gun shots...
 
4) If, on my way to safety, I saw the bad guy as he was in the very act of killing innocent others -- which means and if, only if, I could see and clearly identify that he was in fact the bad guy, and not a plainclothes or off-duty officer or a good citizen who was shooting the real bad guy -- and if I reasonably believed I could take that shot without endangering others (more than they were already in danger) then I would take the shot. Otherwise, I would not.
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That strikes me as a lot of thinking and evaluating, which takes precious time under such conditions. I am not as gracious as pax. I am looking to get myself out of there, or in hiding, just as quickly as I can. I like the thought of getting in ones car and making tracks.
 
Being gun people, we tend to think "how would I use my gun?"

Yet, in the Palm Bay massacre in 1987, IIRC the hero of the day was a guy who used not a gun, but a pickup truck. He picked up wounded, and used his vehicle like an APC, letting some on foot use it as moving cover between them and William Cruse as they retreated.

Assisting others in a crisis may not require violence; there may be non-violent good that can be accomplished, depending on what we consider to be acceptable levels of risk.

My personal level of acceptable risk is reasonably high, based on my long-term career (military aviation as active officer and/or contractor), but it would be significantly reduced if I were with my wife and unborn son.

That said, if on my own or with an armed friend, and I had a clear shot at a positively identified BG, I would feel a duty to take the shot.
 
I hate to sound like a sheeple, but there is no 'real' planning for this case.
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There is never really a plan but there are things to help deter it from happening. Many businesses in my neck of the woods hire LE for their security year round. It being the holidays if you go down to the mall right now there is a mobile command station and about 8 sheriff units parked out front. Its like that every year. We have an officer in every school and the larger schools have 2. Thats not a security for hire either Safe School is a division of the sheriff's office. Shootins will still happen though, the last few shooting we have had in public places were personal vendetta or gang related drive by against specific people.
 
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A lot of great thoughts and information.

What I've taken from the discussion is:
1) The obvious: get yourself (and friends/loved ones) out if possible without putting self/them at risk. No brainer. Interesting tidbit I picked up from the news last night: they said the mall went into "lockdown". Not sure how soon after shooting started or if it happened after shooting stopped. Could that mean that at some point people couldn't get out of the mall while the shooter was still active? That could really change the thought process if you know that the doors may be locked before you could get there.
http://news.yahoo.com/why-more-people-didnt-die-clackamas-mall-shooting-225031988.html
2) If you cannot safely get out, the best move would be to try to get to a safe, defendable area and take cover. Again a no-brainer.
3) Many replies confirmed my initial thoughts: drawing a weapon out in the open in such a chaotic situation is probably a bad idea unless ABSOLUTELY neccessary. Going on the "offensive" (towards the shooting or after the shooter), while it may be brave, is just not smart. Too many facotrs can work against you once you make that decision. It's an individual choice as to whether it is worth the risks.

I appreciate the feedback.
 
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So if were trapped in a lockdown, what can we expect from the swat team that arrives to clear the mall? Do they pat down every shopper looking for more suspects? Do they interview each and every shopper?
 
I hate to sound like a sheeple, but there is no 'real' planning for this case. We can only be aware of our surroundings at all times and hopefully be able to 'do' something correctly when/if the time comes because we're always running scenarios through our minds every time we go anywhere.
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The planning comes from an analysis of these types of situations. what are you likely to face? As Kathy puts it, Are your skills up to task?

Is you equipment up to task? Are you a world class shooter, if you had your tricked out 1911 but find yourself armed with you pocket 380?

Hope is NOT a strategy, you will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your training. Running the scenario though your mind is an important part of training, it is the mental preparedness.

Situations like this are why I train hard, why I practice 50-100 yard shots with the gun I carry, why I carry a fighting gun and not a pocket gun. The situation may not call for a gun, but it may. My first responsibility is my family, I will see them safe first.
 
I'm not good at elaborating on things.
I've had some training in military, etc. Thing is, no matter what scenario we run through our minds, it most likely won't go as we envision it. In a place like that, trouble can start behind you, across from you, down the mall, etc.
Most of us know to duck down, freeze and try to ID the threat. Blindly running could get you killed fast. Training kicks in, but never seems to fit the reality of what's happening. There is no such thing as thinking "I'll get the drop" and it happen. Nor may I be able to herd people to a true zone of safety, not knowing how many are involved or where they may all be. An exit may be blocked.

Plans tick through your mind in nanoseconds and you may go from Plan A to Plan N,of even T-5 in less than 3 seconds. A miss 300 feet away could take you out before you even know where the shots came from. Vigilance is the first line of defense.
 
Tool wise, I carry G19, or 26 depending on my mood or which I pick up. I don't train all the time at 50 yards, but should. I don't spend all my time quick drawing either. Maybe I should. I do spend lots of eyeball time keeping track of surroundings, and who's where, etc. and what they seem to be doing.
 
That strikes me as a lot of thinking and evaluating, which takes precious time under such conditions. I am not as gracious as pax. I am looking to get myself out of there, or in hiding, just as quickly as I can. I like the thought of getting in ones car and making tracks.
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Pax's first three points agreed with your plan. There is nothing ungracious about putting a higher priority on one's loved ones than strangers, and that includes caring enough about your loved ones not to want to grieve them with your own death.

Pax brings up something that I was also thinking about: We talk about taking steps to be sure that we are not misidentified as the BG, but those who talk about going after the shooter don't bring up the possibility of misidentifying an undercover or off-duty LEO or another CCW person as the shooter. While some might excuse such an error, it is not one I would want on my conscience. Like Ms. Kathy, I would have to be certain.
 
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