Accuracy question???

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here a good place to find out who holds the records

http://www.odcmp.com/NM/Trophies.htm
Click to expand...

Great link. Comparing the Springfield vs Garand vs Vintange Military rifle (everybody else' rifle) tells me

Its hard to find something that would outshoot a good '03a3 at a GSM match
Click to expand...

Note: These are "as issued" service rifles, not match rifles.

American's know how to make a great rifle that LAST.

Sorry about getting off topic.

Back to Topic:

Taken from Old Roper's link

The Unlimited Garand or NM and 308 Garands was only fired the last 3 years, the winner was

2009 282
2010 292
2011 292

The Garand "as issued" unmodiified scores for the same period

2009 293
2010 291
2011 292

Money wont get you there, but hard work and fundamentals will.
 
Last edited:
"Money wont get you there, but hard work and fundamentals will."

America used to be a nation of riflemen. USED to be. Today the fundamentals are lost to most shooters.

You have the shooting bench to thank for that.
 
Old Roper:

I think these prices are better. I've nevere seen, even a rack grade, that wasn't capable of 3.5 MOA. More then adiquate for cleaning the GSM Garand Targets. $495 is a bit better for the average guy then $1995. As a side note I like the history of the CMP rifles, all the marks scratches 'n such that were added by who knows what, who was doing what we can only imagine.

America used to be a nation of riflemen. USED to be. Today the fundamentals are lost to most shooters.
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree with that. Look at the Link posted by Old Roper, the scores are higher today then 30, 40, or 50 years ago, using the same rifles.

I've gone back and looked through my score books from when I was serious about High Power. The scores I fired in EIC matches were lower when I got my Dist Badge then they are today. On the average, I think high power shooters are better today then when I was shooting, even those still shooting the M14/M1As.
 
Last edited:
kraigwy, you see a good example of the money game looking at those "As Issued" Garand.

The average guy is priced out maybe not on a local level.
 
"On the average, I think high power shooters are better today then when I was shooting, even those still shooting the M14/M1As."

I agree. Scores are much higher today because of the AR.
It is just so much eaiser for the average person to shoot well with a rifle that has almost no recoil.

I speak of bench shooting because I know many people who have the potential to be able to become very good shooters but because they are so addicted to a bench they will never be anything but bench shooters.
 
Now more about the fundamentals being lost on most shooters today.

In our entire club there are about 300 members. Out of the 300 about 5 of us know how to use a sling. About 5 of us can judge distance and know how many clicks to come up to hit targets at any distance past what the rifle is zeroed for.

About 5 of us can use iron sights.

About 5 of us have any idea about the effects on wind and light on our zero.

About 5 of us can zero a rifle without a bench.

Many of these guys have the potential to be VERY good shooters BUT there is no way to convince them to try to learn any real world shooting skills.
 
"kraigwy, you see a good example of the money game looking at those "As Issued" Garand.

The average guy is priced out maybe not on a local level."

Not true. I can take any CMP service grade Garand and have it shooting well enough to win ANY Garand match in the world with just a few hours work and sometimes, assuming the stock is tight enough, without spending any more money.

If it is a service grade the barrel is already good enough. What is left is no problem. It almost always becomes a matter of the fit of the stock and hand guards.

You make sure the OP rod it not touching anything it is not supposed to and you peen the splines on the barrel so the gas cylinder is rock solid.


The biggest problem you find on Garands is a zero that moves drastically as the rifle heats up. I have seen some shoot as much as 15 inches higher when hot than when cold. This is because of hand guards that are not fitted correctly.

I have seen them put 5 or 6 rounds into a good small group and suddenly throw a flier almost off the paper. A bent OP rod touching something it is not supposed to is the usual reason for that.

No one that shoots CMP Garand matches has to spend $2,000 on a rifle.
 
Fact is, you can't become a precision marksman with less than precision equipment.

If the hardware isn't capable of delivering the level of precision you're seeking- you'll never know whether it's shooter error, or the equipment- that's causing the results to be less than what you're trying to achieve.

You can't develop sub-moa shooting skills with a rifle and ammo that can't deliver those results.

And, that means consistently.
Not the usual internet garbage of showing off the one 3/4 moa target that was shot last week out of fifty...and declaring you have a 3/4 moa rifle...
 
Fact is, you can't become a precision marksman with less than precision equipment.
Click to expand...

Oh, ever here of Gary Anderson. Olympic Medal winner. Still holds the Offhand (standing) ISU record set a long time ago.

He was living on a farm in Nebraska. Got an old 22 and started shooting. He shot a lot using that old gun and hardware varity 22 ammo. Taught himself to shoot.

Sent some of his targets to the Army Marksmanship Unit and the rest is history.
 
I doubt it .....

Oh, ever hear of Gary Anderson. Olympic Medal winner.
Click to expand...

My dad grew up in Mr. Anderson's area (Holdredge, NE), and was just 3 years younger than Mr. Anderson was....... he never mentioned him.
 
I doubt it .....
Click to expand...

I don't.

When I went to Perry for the CMP GSM Master Instructor's course we had a reception at Mr Anderson's home.

It's a relative musium of his shooting history, I've seen the articles about him from the Git Go, and the records of his accomplishments.

No sir, I don't doubt it a bit.

No matter how we wish we could buy success, Good shooting will make up for poor gear, but superior gear will not make up for poor shooting.
 
America used to be a nation of riflemen. USED to be.
Click to expand...

That's a myth. The reason the NRA was formed after the Civil War was because the shooting of the majority of soldiers was so poor.

Unless you're speaking about colonial America, then that's a myth as well.

America has had a higher percentage of citizens familiar with firearms than others. I think that's as far as you can go without stretching the truth.
 
Oh, ever here of Gary Anderson. Olympic Medal winner. Still holds the Offhand (standing) ISU record set a long time ago.

He was living on a farm in Nebraska. Got an old 22 and started shooting. He shot a lot using that old gun and hardware varity 22 ammo. Taught himself to shoot.

Sent some of his targets to the Army Marksmanship Unit and the rest is history.
__________________
Click to expand...

My point was that no one can shoot better than the capability of their equipment.

Not that someone couldn't learn and begin to hone their skills on a cheap rifle. In fact that's what most do, right?

You can't shoot 1/2 minute angle groups from a 3 minute rifle.
 
Originally posted by: jhnrckr
One thing that has always ****** me off is the country boy with a duct taped single shot out shooting guys talking about accuracy on the internet.
Click to expand...

I had to laugh at this because I know it's true, some folks are just naturals.

In all seriousness it takes both good skill and good equipment to really be as good as some of the competitive shooters are.

One day I will retire and then I'll give it a crack, until then I'm competing with myself trying to get a little better each time out.
 
My point was that no one can shoot better than the capability of their equipment.
Click to expand...

And mine was that even crappy equipment (most everyone here would call a 4MOA mosin crappy) will suffice for most practical applications, if the shooter is competent.

These points are not mutally exclusive.

In fact that's what most do, right?
Click to expand...

I doubt that- most guns made today will shoot much better than 3MOA. Most shooters can't hold to that from field positions. Most don't bother to "hone" their practical skills much at all. It is a rare thing when I see somone shooting at a public range standing, sitting, kneeling or prone.... most shoot off sandbags, a bipod, or a rest. And those I do see doing any practical stuff are generally competitive shooters .....

You can't shoot 1/2 minute angle groups from a 3 minute rifle.
Click to expand...
Nope, but you could repetetively hit a 12x18 inch target from 1/4 mile, if you were good. There are for more rifles capable of that than shooters that are.
 
Well, you can stick with trying to become a better shooter with a 4 moa rifle then. What do you call a practical application? Other than hunters at short range, I personally don't know a single "target shooter" that would be satisfied with a 4 moa rifle.

"Competency" as you state it has nothing to do with it- you're telling me that a world-class marksman can make a rifle/ammo combination that's only capable of 4 minute accuracy shoot minute of angle because he's "competent"???

When I said "most do", I was referencing that many shooters start out with a crappy .22 plinking cans on a farm (as I did) and learn from there. But there are limitations to what you can do, and what you can learn, from an inaccurate platform.

Me, I like to know that when the bullet didn't go where I expected it to go, that it was MY fault, and not the equipment.

It's impossible to make that distinction with an inaccurate rifle, and/or ammunition.
 
"You can't shoot 1/2 minute angle groups from a 3 minute rifle"

But a rifleman that can shoot a 3 minute rifle to it's accuracy potential in the field is a better shooter than the bench only shooter who shoots 1/2 minute on the bench.

Back many years ago I had a Mini 14. It was one of the first ones made. I bought it used. It came with a decent scope and along with the rifle I got a bunch of .55 grain soft point loads that the rifle was already zeroed with.
Since back then I did not know how poorly they shot on a bench I proceeded to shoot varmints out to what at the time I thought was incredible distances.

Because I had no idea they were so inaccurate I seldom missed what I was shooting at.

At the time a few of my firends had really nice heavy barrel bolt guns that did a lot of varmit hunting also. I did just as well or most of the time even better then they did mostly because I shot more then they did and I was not addicted to the bench.
 
"Competency" as you state it has nothing to do with it- you're telling me that a world-class marksman can make a rifle/ammo combination that's only capable of 4 minute accuracy shoot minute of angle because he's "competent"???"

No but he can hit things in the field that he needs to hit with the 4 MOA rifle and impress a lot of people with his real world skills.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top