Accuracy question???

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Good equipment is very important. You can not shoot good targets without good equipment. Nope, sorry, it cannot be done. If your gun is shooting 4, 5, or 6 inch groups, you are going to have a lot of trouble putting together a good target. But if your gun is shooting 1 or 2 inch groups the opportunity for a good target is there, then it rests on the shooter.

Say you are an excellent shooter. You can hold 2 MOA. You are using a firearm that can only shoot 4 MOA. You will shoot 6 MOA on a target.
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Not necessarily. You're assuming that the deviation from POA is cumulative, when in fact it may not be. It's just as possible the shooter's error could compensate for the rifle's error.

Not only that, but if you are a hunter, you're not shooting groups. It matters little where the second and third shots go at the range when you know that the rifle shoots to the point of aim, each and every time, on the first shot, when you're shooting at game.
 
An anaolgy I've used before. I have a good friend who is a very accomplished tennis player. Probably 20 years ago I asked him why his $200 tennis racket was better than my $15 K-Mark racket. His reply, "In your hands there is zero advantage to the $200 racket, in my hands, I can make the $200 racket do things the $15 racket cannot."

The same is true with shooting equipment. I don't think it is wise to start out with really poor equipment as a shooter will quickly advanvce past the capabilities of his equipment. But top line gear is probably not necessary for a beginner either.
 
A highly skilled shooter will not shoot well with bad gear.
A poorly skilled shooter will not shoot well with good gear.
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The thing is- the average rifle today is good enough to be much more accurate that the person shooting it under field conditions.

Jeff Cooper wrote decades ago that "It a rare thing for a marksman to shoot up to his rifle." ...... barring a general acceptance of really poor equipment, this will not change.
 
No matter what skill you have, you'll need at least decent equipment, in the sense that it's decent enough to do the task at hand. I've seen guys with decent rifles shoot terribly, and I've also seen beginners shoot great with good rifles. Years ago I was at a rifle range shooting 100 yard targets when a young couple showed up. He knew it all, or so he said to the girlfriend, but he had a mediocre rifle and no idea how to shoot. He shot a while and was doing 8 inch groups. She shot a few times and couldn't hit the paper and the boyfriend was yapping about her poor shooting. I could see that she was a bit down in the mouth, so when the boyfriend went for more ammo I offered her the opportunity to shoot my heavy barreled 220. She snugged into the gun and with just a little instruction she put 3 in about 1/2 inch. That's the good news. The bad news, for me anyway, is that I wasn't shooting much better than that.
 
It does not matter if you have a $60 Turk Mauser or a $6,000 custom gun if all you do is sit on a bench and shoot you will never be a good real world shooter.
 
"Jeff Cooper wrote decades ago that "It a rare thing for a marksman to shoot up to his rifle." ...... barring a general acceptance of really poor equipment, this will not change."

Cooper was not a bench shooter. He knew that true rifle skills are not learned on a bench.

Those were the days of the rifleman.

A rifleman could be in the field and see a target 600 yards away and hit it.

He could judge the distance, click his elevation, windage if needed, get into a field position, with a sling if he had time, and hit the target first shot.

He zeroed his rifle from field positions because he knew a bench zero is not the same. He knew the effects of light and wind on his zero.

He also knew his zero changed depending on his position.
 
Shooting from a bench and a rest only establishes how good the rifle and load are....... and most practical shooting problems can be answered adequately with a 4MOA mosin or mauser, if the shooter can hold still.....

.....it is easier however, to go and buy a $1000 rifle and put $1000 glass on it and buy some match ammo, shoot it off a Lead Sled setting on a bench, with no time pressure and no witnesses, and brag about the 5 shot one inch group.......

Actually, I have bumped up against equipment limitations on a couple of occasions and benefited from buying my way out.
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That's something to aspire to ...... but far better for most folks to start with inexpensive equipment and learn to shoot it as well as it can be shot ....
 
I've found that with a lot of the most expensive and "best" products out there, you are really paying for the name more than anything. There may be some features that help, but bottom line is, if you can't shoot you can't shoot. No amount of fancy high priced equipment is gonna change that. Now if your equipment is malfunctioning, then by all means replace it. Learn to shoot with what you have, then when you do buy something nicer you can appreciate it. I can shoot 4 shots touching at 100 yards with my model 700 and a $30 Bushnell scope, but cant shoot a tight group to save my life with my dads model 700 with a Nikon Prostaff. More $ doesn't always = better
 
One of the best, most enexpensive rifles out there is a CMP M1 Garand. Starting at about $500. Surplus ammo from the CMP is also cheap.

They are not tack drivers but I've never seen a CMP rifle that wasn't capable, if locked in a vice, of cleaning the targets used in the CMP-GSM matches.

However, I bet there isn't anyone on this forum who can clean the Garand Match. Thats Standing, Prone Rapid Fire, and Prone slow fire.
 
Has anyone ever done it?
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Not that I ever heard of. CMP requires the results for their GSM matchs be sent to them and are posted on their website. I check them all the time to see how my club compares. Plus if someone cleaned the course, you can pretty much bet they would be in their News Letter.

My M1 is really old and wore out, but this (below) is the group I shot prone slow fire. As you can see, one up and one right would have cleaned the target. Fine, I've been shooting competition since 1977, I know this rifle will clean the targets, I know I can't................why, because I'm too lazy to put in the work and time to do it.

PS: Along the same lines, go the the CMP Website and find the results of the CMP GSM Western Games. They have to classes for the M1, on is as-issued. Meaning just like they came out of the arms room. They have a second class for "modified" M1s. These are M1s converted to 308 and/or matched out M1s. You'll see the scores for the "as issued" are higher then the scores for the "modified". Can't blame the rifle on this one.

M1%20Target.JPG
 
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As far as the OP's original question, I believe the Captain summed it up,, really in post #5.

I love to practice, the rifle, the handloading for my rifles, but a huge part of my approach is the mentality of being the very best I can be, when I'm shooting, such as preparation.

No amount of money can purchase that.;)
 
Or is it better to respond to loaded questions than to suffer the slings and arrows of Internet Boredom Syndrome?

Actually, I have bumped up against equipment limitations on a couple of occasions and benefited from buying my way out.
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1st reply is the best, and comes closest to matching my sentiments. Especially with rifles. Pistols, I've not run into hardware problems as much. Rifles, definately so.
 
It's all about seat time, practice and education!

Amen to that!

Nothing like seat time, practice and proper instruction to improve your skills no matter what your trying to master!

it's not about the hardware, its about the software. Amateurs talk about hardware (equipment), professionals talk about software (training and mental readiness)
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;)
 
match

John C. Garand Trophy Match.
Clean?
Has anyone ever done it?
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As far as I know, the national record is 293 -6x, held by Kurt Palmer.

As to the rest.....no you cannot buy shooting skill. You can buy top shelf equipment...and it does make a difference. None of the shooters winning a .22 prone competition (where they do shoot clean scores) is shooting a 10-22 or a CZ-52. Y'know....we read about the legendary "kid with the duct taped .22" who shows up at the range and outshoots the slickers with their expensive guns. Maybe that happens at the local Fish Commission range but it doesn't happen at serious, registered matches.
I shoot a lot of pistol matches and while I have been outscored by shooters using a Ruger .22, the match winners weren't shooting Rugers; Hammerlis, FWBs, Smith 41s, Pardinis, but not the Ruger Mk.II or the Browning Buckmark, both oft recommended pistols.
Pete
 
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You can't master poor equipment, but expensive is not always better. If you can't shoot, maybe you're not doing it right. You have to practice to get better.
 
We normally shoot the 50 shot Garand matches at our club. If I remember correctly the best I have ever done overall was a 464.

I did clean the prone stage on a 30 shot match one time.

Sometimes we have a 30 shot Garand match and a 30 shot vintage bolt gun match on the same day. I can shoot an 03a3 better than I can a Garand.
 
Its hard to find something that would outshoot a good '03a3 at a GSM match.

Thats why Springfields have their own match. (Note the "S" in GSM).
 
You can't master poor equipment,
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I disagree.

If you put a Mosin in a mechanical rest, and it will shoot 4" 5 or 10 shot groups at 100 yards, and you take that rifle and can shoot 4" groups at 100 yards from field positions then you have learned to shoot that gun as well as it can be shot. You have mastered that rifle. Time to move to better equipment.....

I did not say it would be easy to do, but it could be done...... and a whole lot more economically efficient than doing the same with a spendy set-up ...... and the skills would transfer ......
 
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