Aaaarghhh!!! So infuriated! Debating anti-gunners!

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Sounds like you're trying to give them a reason to ban everything as soon as possible.
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Seriously? You think Antis are going to get more "anti" because of my statement? You give me way too much credit!

Rather than worrying about what each of us says or how we think we can (or cannot) convert Antis to our side, I think it would be far more productive to make sure that every member on this forum; every gun owner or believer in freedom get their butts to the polls this election cycle and pull that lever (punch the chad, draw the line, etc.) for ONLY pro-gun candidates.

Antis have been in the tank for their candidate long before any shooting event. In fact, most so-called "Antis" likely could care less about guns and only want to politicize whatever they can to boost their preferred candidate. So forget about trying to reach out to these people - during such a heated election cycle, it's a complete total waste of time. This is why I choose to say what I say.
 
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Skans said:
Rather than worrying about what each of us says or how we think we can (or cannot) convert Antis to our side, I think it would be far more productive to make sure that every member on this forum; every gun owner or believer in freedom get their butts to the polls this election cycle and pull that lever (punch the chad, draw the line, etc.) for ONLY pro-gun candidates.
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Disagree -- I think we're past the point of half-measures.

It's no longer a question of worrying about how each of us helps to convert antis OR that we vote pro-2A.....we're at the point where both are needed.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Both sides claim to be right.
Both sides claim to want to do what is best for people.
Both sides think the stance of the other side is a safety concern.
Both sides are HUGELY prone to arguments of emotion.
Both sides are prone to misrepresenting data.
Both sides cherry pick data to argue.
Both sides think the other side is composed of illogical individuals.
We blame the media. They blame the NRA.
Both sides call what the other side is doing with educating children to our views as "indoctrination."
Both sides, this thread included, are prone to ad hominem attacks.
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I look at it this way: If someone wants to reduce the freedom of an individual, the burden of proof should be on them to show their government policy is Constitutional, necessary, effective and with no better alternatives. This is especially true of Constitutionally protected rights like the 2nd Amendment.
 
Not only are the Antis politicizing what happened at the Pulse Bar in Orlando, what the FBI and the Administration apparently aren't telling us is that there were actually three shooters, and one is supposedly still in the hospital on lockdown! I just heard about this, and boy, if this is true then there is a true high-level cover-up about this being a coordinated terrorist attack just to move their anti-gun agenda forward as fast as possible.

I'm going to mark this *** to see how this plays out!
 
Conspiracy theory? I don't think so. Today, it was reported that the shooter used two thirty-round magazines. That's 60 rounds. Now, if 50 people are dead and another 50 wounded, and it took the cops 3 hours until they ever went inside, how does this add up? At best, 80% of the shots fired hit a person - now we are down to less than 50 rounds fired by the "single" terrorist hitting people, yet 100 people were shot.

Idle speculation on my part? Could be, but it's not just me. I hadn't seen this article before, my source was completely different:

http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/06/12/there-was-more-than-one-shooter-at-pulse-in-orlando/
 
In a crowded club, do you think he was actually aiming? It was pray and spray. Three years ago, I killed two deer with a single .308 Win ballistic tip; total luck. So.. how many of this guy's .223 FMJ were through and through?

Hit a person. And the person behind that person. It's not hard to figure out if you have any understanding of.. well.. anything. No conspiracy required. It's terminal ballistics.
 
So, you're saying that with 60 rounds, using the "spray and pray" technique with .223 (not .308) in a crowded night club, its possible to make lethal hits on 50 people and still wound another 50 people?

I have a pretty good understanding of what 60 rounds of .223 is likely to do in a dark crowded nightclub where the inexperienced shooter is likely under more pressure than he ever experienced in his life. And, my "understanding" is that the odds are that 70% of his shots (or more) probably hit walls, ground, ceiling, etc.

Now, it is possible that the report I heard about him having only 2 30 round magazines is dead wrong - wouldn't be the first time the media got something gun-related totally screwed up. But what you propose is ludicrous - i.e. 60 rounds fired killing 50 and wounding 50 others. I don't think the best marksman in the world could come close to accomplishing this with no pressure at all.
 
No conspiracist here, but the probability of 'friendly fire' casualties when the police finally stormed the place must be considered. The local sheriff is on record answering a question about that possibility by saying that Mateen was ultimately responsible for all the casualties, which is not a helpful way to clear the matter up.
 
WWWJD, I'm not looking to derail this thread, and while I am certainly no expert, fast moving light bullets (.223/5.56) do not over penetrate as much as you imply. A 308 hunting round, buckshot, or even many handgun rounds are more inclined to do so.
 
Not to be a party-pooper, but not only do we not do conspiracy theories here, we're also not fond of spreading rumors or speculation about events like these. Until we have actual evidence, there's no point in inventing reasons why something might be true.

Besides, look at it this way: given how much the government has invested in fear-mongering about "terrorism," I don't think the incentive is there to hide evidence of multiple shooters. In any case, let's wait until such evidence is presented before discussing this.
 
and while I am certainly no expert, fast moving light bullets (.223/5.56) do not over penetrate as much as you imply. A 308 hunting round, buckshot, or even many handgun rounds are more inclined to do so.
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True enough, if you are talking about .223 soft points or hollowpoints, and regular (US) urban wall construction. Varmint bullets are built to "blow up" (expand very rapidly) on very light resistance (small animals), and do not penetrate much.

Military (5.56mm) ammo, is a different matter. The fast light FMJ bullets DO penetrate quite a bit.

where the inexperienced shooter is likely under more pressure than he ever experienced in his life.
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I think this is possibly less of a factor than it would seem to be. This was not a gunfight, no one was shooting BACK! The "die for God" types might NOT be under nearly as much stress as you or I would be, they might be "at peace" and very calm, knowing their mission will end with them in "paradise".

This is a much different matter than someone who is hoping and trying to survive, and stressed about possibly not doing so...

Dance club, 300 people, a large percentage of them packed closely together, bullets likely penetrating two, maybe more people, 3 HOURS+ before any medical attention reaches those inside...

It is quite possible that a percentage of the dead would have been able to have been saved, IF medical attention had reached them sooner.

All we have right now is media reports (and we all know how accurate and trustworthy those are...:rolleyes:)

If it was only 60 rnds, given the circumstances, I'd say the body count was improbably high, but not impossibly high.
 
Today, it was reported that the shooter used two thirty-round magazines. That's 60 rounds.
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Assuming that he only had two thirty round mags, that's 60 rounds for his rifle. He also had a pistol.

But I think we can probably discount the idea that he had only 2 magazines for his rifle given that it's pretty well documented that he fired over 200 rounds.

http://www.snopes.com/orlando-mass-shooting-math-doesnt-add-up/

https://www.truthorfiction.com/math-doesnt-add-orlando-nightclub-shooting/
 
Total thread drift but I'll go along for a sec..
So, you're saying that with 60 rounds, using the "spray and pray" technique with .223 (not .308) in a crowded night club, its possible to make lethal hits on 50 people and still wound another 50 people?
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Had a situation near Milwaukee recently where a persons conceal pistol accidentally discharged (1 round) near the entrance to a restaurant. Four people were taken to the hospital with injuries.
The US gov't chose the 30-06 round for use in the garand because 1 round could take out 3 Japanese soldiers..

As far as debating gun-rights with the antis, it's like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are at chess the pigeon is just going to tip over all the pieces, crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway.
 
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