A Real Incident, What Would You Do?

Interesting!

Vacant the area as soon as possible.

Going around them may not be a good idea as they might get in front of car. If they haven't presented a weapon and you run over them, then you are in trouble with the law (and their family will want your head too!) I suspect the presence of a weapon doesn’t automatically make them guilty of anything in your country; therefore, you likely can’t just run over them for “suspicious behavior.”

Going past them also puts everyone in the vehicle in increased danger. As the situation has been presented, it appears the bike riders were a threat; however, if there is a possibility they weren't, then any attempts to run over them or their bikes will be viewed by them as a hostile action and will invoke a hostile response.

In my opinion, the only way the “pass them” option could be implemented is if it was done quickly and decisively, before they could clear the bikes.

If this was a setup for robbery/kidnapping, there should have been a “bad guy” in the rear, but since the OP doesn’t mention this, I’m wondering if rapid reverse and turnaround was possible (I know the OP states turnaround was not possible at that point, but how far back would it be possible? Next driveway? Next block?). A rapid reverse opens distance and puts the “ball in their court” as we would say. If they follow – the situation has now become much clearer – at this point we’re “weapons free” as we continue to vacate the area. Primary weapon – vehicle, secondary weapon – small arms
 
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catnphx said:
If I believe we are in danger then my car becomes my 1st weapon. I hit the gas pedal and hit the back of the bikes as hard as possible without running over the bikes. If I hit the guys that got off the bikes fantastic (mission accomplished) but I also want to disable the bikes and the drivers.
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Best answer so far.

--Wag--
 
@Nitesites,
buddy no offense taken. I should have structured my sentence in a better way. Thanks for the understanding.

Now coming to the OP, as I mentioned that that particular area is infested with criminals these days. People had bought properties i.e. real state there and my relative was one of them and at that time he was going to visit it.

Most areas of karachi specially Gaddap town, Gulzar-e-Hijri, Taiser Town, etc are now hubs for kidnappers & other criminals. Lots of businesses of Farm House, Entertainments, Property have gone down the drain because of such criminal activities. Police is not doing anything there as usual. According to our CPLC (Citizens Police Liaison Committee), 54 cases of kidnapping were reported in just last 2.5 months in Karachi (mostly in the same areas) out of which 37 persons were recovered after paying ransom. Fate of the rest is unknown till this point of time as their families have not been contacted for ransom etc yet. The worst part is that there are now many small groups that do not deal for ransom directly rather they SELL the kidnapped person to other big criminals / terrorists such as Pakistani Talibans and thus the poor victims often end up in Hub, Waziristan or Interior Sindh.
 
Hindsight

First of all, thanks for this thought exercise, and I'm eagerly awaiting hearing how the situation was actually dealt with.

And I apologize for those who seem to want to nitpick your account.

You did not identify your personal arm. In that part of the world, and with abductions and other such crimes a real possibility, I hope you had more than a handgun. It's said that a handgun is what you carry when you're not expecting trouble; when you have good reason to expect trouble, you carry a rifle. And I thought that in rural Pakistan everybody and his cousin has an AK-47 or a locally-made copy.
 
In an area such as you describe, with two guys on bikes obviously performing an intercept maneuver (and in the Afghanistan/Pakistan region, assassinations from motorcycle are very common), when they pulled in front and tapped the brakes, they'd have been wearing the front end of my car - for an instant, anyway.

Why draw, or engage in a potential shootout, when one can simply sledge-hammer them off their bikes?

And if that sounds ruthless, then odds are the folks who think so haven't had to do their studies on threat recognition in CENTCOM.
 
@Ringolevio. I appreciate your concern and I don't really blame it on members here. Thats how things are associated with Pakistan sadly.

The relative of mine was carrying a CF 98 in 9mm made by Norinco China (Official Name QSZ 92). 1 spare mags. 1 in chamber. Mags have 15 round capacity but he was carrying 13 in each.

Regarding carrying AK 47, well its not really the case in rural Pakistan as a whole but in tribal areas which borders Afghanistan. Not so here in urban areas and big cities. Its really hard to carry a weapon for SD in Karachi specially. Police often harasses those who legally carry in their vehicles or person but criminals w/o licenses roam free. Not every 1 can carry a fully automatic assault rifle as its license is next to impossible for an ordinary joe to acquire. Even if you do acquire it somehow, you cannot carry it in your vehicle w/o going through a number of bureaucratic red tapes and other permits beside the original license.
 
ok what happened OP? there will probably still be discussion after you give more details. were the assailants or your relative hurt? was anyone apprehended by authorities after the fact? what was the purpose of the assailants?
 
saw one had a pistol? and they basically "ran me off the road"?

slam on the gas, damn the consequences, call 911 in 30 seconds and tell them what happened. try to avoid rolling them over like racoons if possible, but prioritize getting out of danger.

anyone who is going to act that reckless better have a badge or a death wish.
 
Thanks guys for your responses. So it went like this.

The guy was wearing the pistol (9mm CF98) on his strong side in an IWB manner with just the grip outside his jeans. According to him, he always keeps chamber loaded with safety off. That day however, he forgot to put the safety OFF. So as soon as he saw the BG's pistol in his shalwar, he drew extremely fast (wondering how since he like most of us here is not at all trained and only has a couple of range sessions in entire life). He pressed the trigger but the safety was engaged. Meanwhile the BGs saw the pistol and they started racking their slides.(Most criminals use TT .30 caliber here and its assumed that its not safe with a loaded chamber & hammer down as they dont have any firing pin, hammer drop safety) He quickly disengaged the safety and started firing directly through the windscreen. This caused the bikers to ran away straight and the pillion riders went left & right. The victim kept firing on his left & right causing the windows crashed of both sides. The guy on the right side returned fire while disappearing into the bushes. The road was clear now so the guy raced the car forward keeping his pistol in the hand. It all happened so fast that he didn't have time to say anything to his family like duck, get down etc, but since his wife had already seen the guy & his pistol , she was ducked already.

According to him it all started & finished hardly in 6-8 seconds. He fired 11 shots in quick succession, 6 on windshield, 2 on left side & 3 on right side. This could have been ugly because the right side guy's shots landed in & on the car. He doesn't remember how many rounds the BG fired. 1 round came from the windshield, penetrated the dashboard, exited, & landed in steering wheel. 1 shot hit the driver side door(We have right hand drives here), penetrated , but struck on the hinges. Another shot landed on windscreen at passenger side, hitting the pillar.

It was a miracle that he and his family suffered no injuries. He believes he couldn't hit any BG since the bullets ( after going through the windshield if fired from inside) have the tendency to deflect above (Box O Truth has this demonstration I guess). However, according to his dad, he saw the left side guy loosing his balance and kinda hitting ground so not sure whether he was hit or not. Its also strange that left side BG, despite having the pistol couldn't return any fire which also went in victims' favor.

Nevertheless, he gave the BGs a run for their lives.
 
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I am sure that many of you would not agree with the actions he took. Gun may not necessarily needed to be the 1st choice and I asked him this too. He told me that the bikes were stopped in such a way that if he had hit any of them it would have been a head on which may have caused the radiator / fan damage thus disabling the car. He was of the opinion that he should have reversed while firing but it never occurred to him to do so.

Before you ask, no he did not lodge a complain or report it to the police and I agree with it because we know our police here better :(.
 
Wow, well after turning it into a firefight, he is incredibly lucky he or his family weren't hurt!!! Without a doubt I would have beat cheeks in reverse!
Now, that being said there isn't really a good choice in that situation. And giving the options of probably being kidnapped (for starters) or risking a shootout, I'm gonna draw and fire every time n just pray for the best......
 
omkhan
I am sure that many of you would not agree with the actions he took. Gun may not necessarily needed to be the 1st choice and I asked him this too. He told me that the bikes were stopped in such a way that if he had hit any of them it would have been a head on which may have caused the radiator / fan damage thus disabling the car. He was of the opinion that he should have reversed while firing but it never occurred to him to do so.

Before you ask, no he did not lodge a complain or report it to the police and I agree with it because we know our police here better
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Bottom line - your friend got himself and his family out unscathed. Next time, maybe both his father and bride should also be armed and thus be able to contribute to everyone's well-being?
 
I believe your friend did what he thought necessary to preserve the lives of his father, wife, and self. And taking certain things into consideration, I wouldn't say it was right or wrong; just an immediate response in a harsher environment than I for one am accustomed to...
 
From what you've described his response was a good one, from the outside maybe not the best tactical option, but it got him and his family out of danger unharmed.

My personal response would have been more to the use my vehicle to clear the motorcycles and/or riders from the road and speed away. I probably would have jammed on the gas when seeing the pistol being uncovered.

I had an event/incident in South Dakota outside Sturgis that made me contemplate bike vs car scenarios. I was driving through to Montana, and the Sturgis rally was going on, so bikers were everywhere. Some freaking awesome bikes being ridden/towed, but that's a different story :)

Anywho driving on a mountain road in a buick, at the tail end of a long road trip, I'm not taking chances and sticking to about 5 below the speed limit. A group of bikers came up from behind, were clearly displeased that I was driving slowly, and eventually pass me. As one goes by the lady on the back, makes a pistol with her hand and pretends to shoot at me. I couldnt help but think on the subject of what if she had a real gun. and other scenarios in which a biker or bikers might try aggresive action on me while in my car. All I could keep thinking was, 3000lbs of buick vs less than a 1000lbs of bike and rider...I should be alright if I dont get shot, and it's hard to shoot someone while being hit by a car. Granted if you're driving one of those overgrown golf carts, aka Smart Car, YMMV :D
 
Our police in the US aren't always perfect, but I can't even imagine not being able to report something like that. Makes me really thankful.
 
It was a miracle..
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+1 on that note

As a matter of interest, was he driving a vehicle with manual or automatic transmission?

His speed of reaction likely made the difference in this encounter.

I also agree with the previous post recommending more firepower/weapons; however, I don't know if women are allowed to carry or possess a pistol in your country.

Hope the brother, wife and father can recover their hearing because it must have been loud inside the vehicle!
 
" Not so here in urban areas and big cities. Its really hard to carry a weapon for SD in Karachi specially. Police often harasses those who legally carry in their vehicles or person but criminals w/o licenses roam free. Not every 1 can carry a fully automatic assault rifle as its license is next to impossible for an ordinary joe to acquire. Even if you do acquire it somehow, you cannot carry it in your vehicle w/o going through a number of bureaucratic red tapes and other permits beside the original license. "

Sounds like Chicago!

Does this kind of 2A assault ring any bells!
 
Someone said to him that we live in a much different world than him. I want some of what he's smoking. Then he says that but their police are corrupt and can't be relied upon. Our police in the US are the same way.
I'm glad your friend and his family are ok.
 
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