a police officer stationed on school grounds
- Thread starter jason41987
- Start date
"""if a shooter tries to shoot open the interior door the teacher leads the class outside through the other door to the outside and then locks the door from the outside, if a shooter tries to shoot open the exterior door from the outside then the teacher leads the class through the interior door to the interior of the school and then locks that door from the inside interior or hallway. All doors should be heavy steel with no glass and as firerarm resistant as possible and lockable from both sides, so the teacher after leading the class through the door could lock it from the other side. There should be no windows in the classroom.""" PH/CIB
"""You are not building a school ..... that's a trap.""" Jimbob86
I have to respectfully disagree, windows are almost always a security risk, one is a shooter can see targets through them and shoot through them, two a shooter can enter through them, three it is generally too hard for young children to open windows and it would be faster for a teacher to open a door to the outside or to the interior of the building and let the kids out than to open multiple windows to let the kids out which also requires jumping to the ground, four in my post I stated no windows in classrooms but a door to the outside to escape from a shooter on the inside and a door to the interior of the building to escape from a shooter trying to get in from the outside.
"""You are not building a school ..... that's a trap.""" Jimbob86
I have to respectfully disagree, windows are almost always a security risk, one is a shooter can see targets through them and shoot through them, two a shooter can enter through them, three it is generally too hard for young children to open windows and it would be faster for a teacher to open a door to the outside or to the interior of the building and let the kids out than to open multiple windows to let the kids out which also requires jumping to the ground, four in my post I stated no windows in classrooms but a door to the outside to escape from a shooter on the inside and a door to the interior of the building to escape from a shooter trying to get in from the outside.
There are roughly 100,000 public grade schools and another 30,000 non-public schools.
What is the cost of an officer for a year to the community? $60,000? $50,000? $75,000. Not their salary, but their full cost with retirement, training, equipment and insurances?
Multiply that number by one hundred thousand for public schools. Total cost per year will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000,000,000 (ten billion dollars). Add a vehicle for those 100,000 officers and the money that you have to come up with goes up again. Roughly $2,000,000,000 (probably on the low side).
Twelve billion dollars to start and ten billion dollars every year.
It simply isn't practicable to do that.
It is practicable to fund training volunteer teachers and administrators, but the cost would still be very large considering you wouldn't just underwrite carry courses for them. It might be useful for people who want such a program to be put in place to read this from a pilot's group. http://www.secure-skies.org/armedpilotcosts.php
On the other hand, we could look at the real risks of these rare incidents and conclude that there's no real driver to do anything, put officers in schools, train volunteer teachers like airline pilots, or ban any firearm or ammunition feeding device.
What is the cost of an officer for a year to the community? $60,000? $50,000? $75,000. Not their salary, but their full cost with retirement, training, equipment and insurances?
Multiply that number by one hundred thousand for public schools. Total cost per year will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000,000,000 (ten billion dollars). Add a vehicle for those 100,000 officers and the money that you have to come up with goes up again. Roughly $2,000,000,000 (probably on the low side).
Twelve billion dollars to start and ten billion dollars every year.
It simply isn't practicable to do that.
It is practicable to fund training volunteer teachers and administrators, but the cost would still be very large considering you wouldn't just underwrite carry courses for them. It might be useful for people who want such a program to be put in place to read this from a pilot's group. http://www.secure-skies.org/armedpilotcosts.php
On the other hand, we could look at the real risks of these rare incidents and conclude that there's no real driver to do anything, put officers in schools, train volunteer teachers like airline pilots, or ban any firearm or ammunition feeding device.
WayneinFL:
Teachers should teach. The most-qualified applicants should be selected for their teaching experience/skill and they should be given pay raises according to how well they teach. Similarly, no one should ask security guards to be janitors just b/c they are at a location after business hours.
If teachers want to carry concealed then it should be allowed to them. No one should be required to be defenseless.
Putting a police officer at each location would be a reasonable, albeit expensive, solution to the problem of security. The issue here is that the site is unprotected.
Let's take an imaginary headline:
"A maniac broke into a school with a _____ and attacked defenseless students."
a. rifle
b. revolver
c. club
d. knife
e. bomb
You could fill-in-the-blank using any of these choices, some would even be possible in a hypothetical location with a complete firearms ban, and the end result is that defenseless kids will be hurt. The elephant in the room imho is that schools are often defenseless. Would a police officer on guard be a target? Maybe. Would response times be greatly diminished if one were? Yes. Would they act as a deterrent? Probably. If the studies that show that crimes decrease where ccw is allowed are relational rather than coincidental, then having a police officer on site would decrease attacks at schools. Are people willing to pay to have safe schools for kids? I would.
Teachers should teach. The most-qualified applicants should be selected for their teaching experience/skill and they should be given pay raises according to how well they teach. Similarly, no one should ask security guards to be janitors just b/c they are at a location after business hours.
If teachers want to carry concealed then it should be allowed to them. No one should be required to be defenseless.
Putting a police officer at each location would be a reasonable, albeit expensive, solution to the problem of security. The issue here is that the site is unprotected.
Let's take an imaginary headline:
"A maniac broke into a school with a _____ and attacked defenseless students."
a. rifle
b. revolver
c. club
d. knife
e. bomb
You could fill-in-the-blank using any of these choices, some would even be possible in a hypothetical location with a complete firearms ban, and the end result is that defenseless kids will be hurt. The elephant in the room imho is that schools are often defenseless. Would a police officer on guard be a target? Maybe. Would response times be greatly diminished if one were? Yes. Would they act as a deterrent? Probably. If the studies that show that crimes decrease where ccw is allowed are relational rather than coincidental, then having a police officer on site would decrease attacks at schools. Are people willing to pay to have safe schools for kids? I would.
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If they are contractors you can figure on paying the corporation that supplies the labor about $350,000 to a high of $700,000 dollars a year. This is for someone who makes $50K per year.
I consider the “arming” of teachers and school administrators a nice pie in the sky idea.
First of all, if these people wanted to be Delta Force, Cops, or Ninja warriors, they would be Delta Force, Cops or Ninja warriors, not school teachers. These people are not terminator machines they are of a different temperament, I have no doubt the killing machine types were screened out in the interview process or schools would have a lot of law suits over teachers hurting students.
So temperamentally, how many of these people are going to be aggressively looking for conflict with an active shooter?
I remember seeing the Columbine Swat team on the tube, all of them equipped with more military equipment than the most fashionistia Mall Ninja, all of them hiding well away from Columbine High School because they were afraid of getting their butts shot off by two high school kids with guns.
If you can’t get a Swat team to confront killers then what do you expect from school teachers?
And what is the incentive for a school teacher to get shot or killed in combat with an active shooter?
Lets say teachers get paid between the 10% and 90% of $38 K to $66 K , the upper number representing ten years of service, and paying off $100K of College loans:
http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/elementary-school-teacher/salary
http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/
http://www1.salary.com/Public-School-Teacher-Salary.html
How many people want to get injured or die protecting ungrateful taxpayer’s kids for $38 K a year? Anyone with a rational mind is going to clear out as fast as possible when they hear shooting. Now if they encounter the nut case shooter on the way out, well who knows if they are of the type who would center up a teenage/twenty year old on the post sight and pull the trigger?
Any armed teacher would have many obsticles to jump to become "authorized" to carry. From what I have read on the web, after ten years of Government subsidized “Armed Pilot” programs, maybe 10% of pilots have jumped the hoops to be considered “authorized” to be armed. Who knows if their airline policies allow them to be armed, never mind what TSA say.
The last time years ago, I went into the Social Security Office in Creston, Iowa a small farm town of six or seven thousand or so,,,there was a uniformed armed security guard and the workers were protected from the general public by bullet proof glass...Quess they were worried we cranky old people might assault them with our walkers or our canes.
Every time I go into the VA Hospital I see security there.
The last time I went into the Federal Building in downtown Des Moines to visit the VA and the National Service Officers with the various Veteran's Organizations, I remembered to leave my gun and knife in the car in a public parking lot, and as soon as I walked in the door I was met by two security guards and required to walk through a metal detector which I set off, they had me walk through it again and I set it off again, this time they were not smiling, they had me walk through it again and I set it off so they wanded me and I then remembered the steel shanks in the soles of my leather mountaineering boots.
The last time I talked to a couple of FBI Agents in their office on a Grand Jury Case they had me walk through a metal detector.
Now I know there are more schools than probably all the Social Security Offices and VA Hospitals and Federal Buildings and FBI Offices combined,,,but when I hear Don Rumsfeld say on 9/10/2001 the day before 9/11 that there were 2.3 TRILLION dollars missing in the DoD that could not be found, I think if the Government really wanted to they could find a way to protect our schools. We put a Man on the Moon did'nt we?
Every time I go into the VA Hospital I see security there.
The last time I went into the Federal Building in downtown Des Moines to visit the VA and the National Service Officers with the various Veteran's Organizations, I remembered to leave my gun and knife in the car in a public parking lot, and as soon as I walked in the door I was met by two security guards and required to walk through a metal detector which I set off, they had me walk through it again and I set it off again, this time they were not smiling, they had me walk through it again and I set it off so they wanded me and I then remembered the steel shanks in the soles of my leather mountaineering boots.
The last time I talked to a couple of FBI Agents in their office on a Grand Jury Case they had me walk through a metal detector.
Now I know there are more schools than probably all the Social Security Offices and VA Hospitals and Federal Buildings and FBI Offices combined,,,but when I hear Don Rumsfeld say on 9/10/2001 the day before 9/11 that there were 2.3 TRILLION dollars missing in the DoD that could not be found, I think if the Government really wanted to they could find a way to protect our schools. We put a Man on the Moon did'nt we?
arming teachers
Being new to firearms generally, I have done a fair amount of reading here and elsewhere. It appears that to be able to return fire effectively in a shooter situation, a teacher would need training to an essentially professional level requiring a lot of additional time and money (neither of which is to be found in our beleaguered school system).
So while I'm not anti-gun, the suggestion of just putting guns in the teachers' hands seems a bit on the glib side.
Being new to firearms generally, I have done a fair amount of reading here and elsewhere. It appears that to be able to return fire effectively in a shooter situation, a teacher would need training to an essentially professional level requiring a lot of additional time and money (neither of which is to be found in our beleaguered school system).
So while I'm not anti-gun, the suggestion of just putting guns in the teachers' hands seems a bit on the glib side.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I don't think that's true. While extensive training certainly increases your odds, most defensive situations are successfully resolved by folks with no training whatsoever.
Training would certainly be better but I don't think it comes down to required.
I suspect that the high likelihood of encountering armed resistance would stop most of these lunatic cowards before they ever acted. Especially if they didn't know who might be armed or when. They might just go somewhere else instead, but that's another issue altogether.
The presence of armed resistance may well NOT stop someone who has a specific grudge but someone who's looking for an easy target will likely look elsewhere.
Training would certainly be better but I don't think it comes down to required.
I suspect that the high likelihood of encountering armed resistance would stop most of these lunatic cowards before they ever acted. Especially if they didn't know who might be armed or when. They might just go somewhere else instead, but that's another issue altogether.
The presence of armed resistance may well NOT stop someone who has a specific grudge but someone who's looking for an easy target will likely look elsewhere.
Yes it is. But I'll bet most schools already have teachers who own guns, and some of those have carry permits. They are halfway there already, and the school doesn't have to lay out anything for the hardware. All they need is a little training -- which the police or sheriff could provide -- and some guidelines (guns must be concealed and worn on the body at all times, etc)
Some school already have police officers stationed there; are they armed? Are they the first line of defense or the second? (I'm talking about a somewhat hardened perimeter to deter some bad guys and slow down the rest, to buy the good guys a little time) If the armed guard or officer is stationed outside, he just becomes a target.
Brian Pfleuger
I think that you're on to something, actually. From what I can recall of a number of these cases, putting up resistance tends to deter the attacker. Apparently, being shot at or confronted by an armed citizen or police officer makes these people change course:
Just a few I can think of:
1. columbine: the 2 perps were exiting (planning on escape) when they ran into some early responders; they exchanged a few shots, then retreated to the library and shot themselves.
2. Brazilian school shooting. Police said the gunmen shot himself in the head after he was confronted by officers.
3. Sandy Hook: perp shoots himself as police officers approach.
4. tacoma mall shooting in 2005. An armed citizen confronts the shooter. That doesn't end well for the citizen, but the shooter takes hostages and holes up.
I think that these types are so involved in their own little world that when reality intrudes, they really haven't taken that into account and they have a little bit of a crisis and start thinking of plan b.
I think that you're on to something, actually. From what I can recall of a number of these cases, putting up resistance tends to deter the attacker. Apparently, being shot at or confronted by an armed citizen or police officer makes these people change course:
Just a few I can think of:
1. columbine: the 2 perps were exiting (planning on escape) when they ran into some early responders; they exchanged a few shots, then retreated to the library and shot themselves.
2. Brazilian school shooting. Police said the gunmen shot himself in the head after he was confronted by officers.
3. Sandy Hook: perp shoots himself as police officers approach.
4. tacoma mall shooting in 2005. An armed citizen confronts the shooter. That doesn't end well for the citizen, but the shooter takes hostages and holes up.
I think that these types are so involved in their own little world that when reality intrudes, they really haven't taken that into account and they have a little bit of a crisis and start thinking of plan b.
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zxcvbob is right. I know of many teachers at my school (I'm a HS teacher) who have military background, CWPs or are avid hunters. Lots of us have experience with weapons. Just because we love teaching doesn't mean that we aren't serious, deliberate people who are capable of decisive action.
We don't need to be Delta Force. We only need to have an effective means of defending our students at our disposal. If something like this were to happen in my school, I would like to know that someone has a fighting chance of stopping the BG.
As it is, I train my classes that we will lock ourselves in a storage room if we hear a lockdown called. If an active shooter enters our room before we have a chance to hide, we will throw everything that isn't nailed down and rush him en masse. Some of us will probably die but we won't all die and that is the point.
We don't need to be Delta Force. We only need to have an effective means of defending our students at our disposal. If something like this were to happen in my school, I would like to know that someone has a fighting chance of stopping the BG.
As it is, I train my classes that we will lock ourselves in a storage room if we hear a lockdown called. If an active shooter enters our room before we have a chance to hide, we will throw everything that isn't nailed down and rush him en masse. Some of us will probably die but we won't all die and that is the point.
Nickel Plated
New member
Honestly I seriously doubt any sort of "deterrent" will actually work. These are mentally insane people we are dealing with. You really think they're afraid of dying?
If you're going to shoot up a school/theatre/mall, you can't possibly expect to walk out of there alive.
Infact most of these incidents end with the shooter offing himself. They were very much prepared to die and just wanted to take as many with them as possible. So the whole threat of them getting shot just doesn't work. It's like threatening to shoot a suicide bomber.
Armed people on the scene will decrease the length and number of casualties in these incidents, but it won't decrease the number of incidents.
If you're going to shoot up a school/theatre/mall, you can't possibly expect to walk out of there alive.
Infact most of these incidents end with the shooter offing himself. They were very much prepared to die and just wanted to take as many with them as possible. So the whole threat of them getting shot just doesn't work. It's like threatening to shoot a suicide bomber.
Armed people on the scene will decrease the length and number of casualties in these incidents, but it won't decrease the number of incidents.
SauerGrapes
New member
My wife picks up 3 children at an elementary school for some working parents. Since Monday morning, there has been a marked police car sitting outside the school both days. I assume this will continue to be "SOP" indefinately.
Words can't describe how much this has saddened me since this despicable creep murdered these poor inocent children and staff.
Words can't describe how much this has saddened me since this despicable creep murdered these poor inocent children and staff.
The High School I went to had 4 or 5 permanent SRO's(School Resource Officers) for about 2000 students.
Even an equal number of active shooters would be hard pressed to take down 4 or 5 LEO's.
That being said the middle and elm school I went to were in more affluent areas. They do NOT have a single resource officer on hand. The local PD is about 19 officers total. I imagine you could get a LEO on site to either school within 2-3 mins of a 911 call but still.
Part of the problem is schools have been preparing for a disorganized attack by one or two high school aged children. The Amish School House and Now the Conn. shootings have shown us they need to worry about threats from outside as well.
Thats just a bad idea...after a couple of weeks the cops will become complacent, a lot like the cops I still see sitting in their squad cars outside movie theaters. It would be all too easy to just walk up and eliminate the officer. A roving, unpredictable patrol is a much better option. It might be a feel good option but I imagine most thinking people realize its just window dressing.
Even an equal number of active shooters would be hard pressed to take down 4 or 5 LEO's.
That being said the middle and elm school I went to were in more affluent areas. They do NOT have a single resource officer on hand. The local PD is about 19 officers total. I imagine you could get a LEO on site to either school within 2-3 mins of a 911 call but still.
Part of the problem is schools have been preparing for a disorganized attack by one or two high school aged children. The Amish School House and Now the Conn. shootings have shown us they need to worry about threats from outside as well.
Thats just a bad idea...after a couple of weeks the cops will become complacent, a lot like the cops I still see sitting in their squad cars outside movie theaters. It would be all too easy to just walk up and eliminate the officer. A roving, unpredictable patrol is a much better option. It might be a feel good option but I imagine most thinking people realize its just window dressing.
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No, they are not afraid of dying.... they fear messing up their shot at infamy.
The want to play God, and the minute something jacks up their Plan, they check out. That is what I believe happened in Oregon. 2 died there, and the nutball's gun jammed. An armed citizen showed a gun -did not even fire- and the nutter went into a back hallway and ended it. 2 is a durned sight lighter butcher's bill than 26.
Fewer dead would be nice.
I know I would rather have my kids have a chance ..... rather than have to wait their turn ......
357 Python
New member
In my hometown there has been a police officer in some of the schools since the mid 1970s. The high school has a full time School Resource Officer. The middle schools used to have rotating School Resource Officers. They were plain clothes most of the time but occassionally wore their duty uniforms.
Rep. Dennis Richardson is the state representative for Oregon where I live. He has posted a letter to the public proposing volunteer armed campus responders in Oregons Public schools, at the bottom of his letter is a link where one can vote as well as leave a comment.
I voted.
I am sharing this link here, I realize that the percentage of Oregonians in this forum might be a minority, but the voting page is unanimous.... Please overwhelm this surveymonkey with votes in the right direction, one step that works for one state will lead the way for others. It only has two questions and a comment box.
http://www.leg.state.or.us/richardson/newsletter/newsletters_2012/newsletter_121712.htm
My thoughts: I cant say I know the details of what he could propose, but this is a step in the right direction. FWIW, in my opinion I think teachers and parents with CCW permits should be allowed to carry concealed on school grounds if they choose... I do not believe in "gun free" zones. Although I believe that no one is responsible for the individuals security but themselves, I like the idea of an armed campus responder, as a working parent I know I can't be there 24/7 even if I could carry... and I do not have any faith they will change that law anytime soon. I know I would certainly volunteer as a campus responder and even pay for any tactical training the program might require. I do believe, in part, that the solution lies with the citizens and community, not law enforcement or paid armed security.
I voted.
I am sharing this link here, I realize that the percentage of Oregonians in this forum might be a minority, but the voting page is unanimous.... Please overwhelm this surveymonkey with votes in the right direction, one step that works for one state will lead the way for others. It only has two questions and a comment box.
http://www.leg.state.or.us/richardson/newsletter/newsletters_2012/newsletter_121712.htm
My thoughts: I cant say I know the details of what he could propose, but this is a step in the right direction. FWIW, in my opinion I think teachers and parents with CCW permits should be allowed to carry concealed on school grounds if they choose... I do not believe in "gun free" zones. Although I believe that no one is responsible for the individuals security but themselves, I like the idea of an armed campus responder, as a working parent I know I can't be there 24/7 even if I could carry... and I do not have any faith they will change that law anytime soon. I know I would certainly volunteer as a campus responder and even pay for any tactical training the program might require. I do believe, in part, that the solution lies with the citizens and community, not law enforcement or paid armed security.