A officer story

It may well not be easy to come by, nor did I say it was. But what we have in this OP is a fine example of how caliber by itself did not end the fight merely from the attcker being shot. If you don't shoot the right place the fight goes on. We train and then practice what we learned for the purpose of being better able to get that shot placement.

As for the 22 comment. Out of a handgun 22 LR might not be able to get the center mass penetration needed to hit one of those vital areas (I honestly haven't seen that tested). So yes shot placement alone isn't the key, but to me 22 LR isn't a caliber out of a handgun that I'd personally use for self defense, nor is the difference between 22LR and 9MM on the same level as the difference between 9mm and 45ACP. To me it's much more. That said, if I have to choose between a hit with a 22 LR and a miss with a 44 mag, I know which I would choose.


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Wouldn't believe anybody who talks about how he shot somebody myself. Haven't ever talked to any combat vet or copper who would. Some cops will talk about themselves getting shot, but not about themselves being the shooter.
"...Out of a handgun 22 LR..." Won't out of a rifle either. That little bit of lead will break up upon impact with bone.
"...choose between a hit with..." See if you can get a choice of where. snicker. However, chances are you wouldn't know it anyway. Knew a guy, years ago, who walked off the Dieppe beach with 8 8mm bullet holes in him. One of 'em had caused a compound leg fracture. Johnny didn't know it until the MO on the ship asked him how he got off the beach.
 
QUOTE: "...It may well not be easy to come by, nor did I say it was..."

No, but what you did say is, "I don't see how anyone can argue anything other than shot placement when it comes to handgun calibers." My only point is that there are other, if less important, factors to discuss on a gun site than shot placement.

I might add that, no offense to the op, T. O'Heir is absolutely right when he opined, "Wouldn't believe anybody who talks about how he shot somebody myself." Neither would I.
 
TunnelRat

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Everyone has favorites and pretty soon nothing else matters but bolstering the legend of your favorite whether the story is true, an exaggeration, or an outright lie.
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That may be so, but that doesn't mean we have to encourage that behavior. I try to dissuade most people, myself included, from becoming too focused on one brand, caliber, etc.
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I'm not encouraging anything, but I am enough of a student of human nature to realize that this is just the way some people are. It doesn't matter whether it is the caliber debate, pistol brand debate, Glock versus 1911, AK vs AR15, or hillary versus trump, people will do what they think they need to to prove their idea is right, better, and the only choice.
 
"...Out of a handgun 22 LR..." Won't out of a rifle either. That little bit of lead will break up upon impact with bone.
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I've seen a test that suggests otherwise. I'll see if I can find it.



This is out of a pistol at close range:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDWVrIMszyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ANIBno8CQ



Rifle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olJtTSBJniA



22 short out of a pistol, 22 LR out of a rifle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY

Hardly the pinnacle of scientific testing, but it's the best I can do for now.



"...choose between a hit with..." See if you can get a choice of where. snicker
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I think you misread or I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about me getting hit. I meant it to read that a hit with 22LR is more effective than a miss with 44 mag. The point was if I can't shoot a larger caliber well enough to reliably hit, then I have to make do with the smaller/lighter caliber.
 
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The only thing .45acp has going for it is that it is wider and will directly cut more tissue. Maybe this would have been enough extra damage for the suspect that got shot 7 times to put him down, but we don't know that for sure. What we do know is that .45acp recoils harder and guns chambered in it carry less ammo. Most people can shoot a 9mm better than a .45 because it kicks less. 9mm can also go up to 1350 fps in some +p+ so you can get a marginally better hydrostatic tissue damage effect, compensating for it's lesser width and thus lesser ability to directly cut tissue. On a non defensive note though, 9mm is also cheaper, more available and has more options for ammo types.
 
3006loader

The only thing .45acp has going for it is that it is wider and will directly cut more tissue. Maybe this would have been enough extra damage for the suspect that got shot 7 times to put him down, but we don't know that for sure. What we do know is that .45acp recoils harder and guns chambered in it carry less ammo. Most people can shoot a 9mm better than a .45 because it kicks less. 9mm can also go up to 1350 fps in some +p+ so you can get a marginally better hydrostatic tissue damage effect, compensating for it's lesser width and thus lesser ability to directly cut tissue. On a non defensive note though, 9mm is also cheaper, more available and has more options for ammo types.
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I disagree with your ascertation that the .45acp recoils harder. I liken the recoil of the .45acp to a push, where the recoil of the 9mm is a crack. My petite wife can shoot my 1911 far better than my full sized P89 even shooting it single action. Again the platform may be the determining factor but even my XDs in .45acp is not difficult to control.

As for the less ammo argument, there are all kinds of compact and subcompact 9mm pistols that don't carry that many more rounds than many .45 acp pistols. More hits with less rounds is better than spray and pray because you have 15 rounds and a spare magazine.

As for cheaper...I'm not sure I agree cheaper is better for self defense. How many Hi-Points do you own? After all they are cheaper than most any other handgun.

Carry what you want.
 
^ I have to disagree with the notion that having more capacity turns you into a "spray and pray" maniac. I often see this same idea floated when this discussion comes up. It's as much a falsehood as the idea that a 45 ACP is hard to control.


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Tunnelrat is right. The military had the idea that if a man had a finer rifle and less ammo he would be forced to take the time to make better shots and the army would basiclly become one big force of DMRs. It turned out to be total bunk. Turns out he who throws more rounds wins. Its a gum fight, not a duel.
 
There are numerous factors that come into play regarding stopping power.

Energy
Projectile size
projectile configuration
penetration depth
state of mind of the person getting shot.
shot placement
velocity as it affects temporary wound cavity size
general physical state of the person getting shot

Of all of the factors listed (and others not listed) the three most important are:

1. Shot placement
2. Shot placement
3. Shot placement
 
If the .45 was that good it would not be a dying round among the military and police. It was only ever really popular in America, but the myth of the .45 is alive and well. The guy could have being hit with 7 rounds of .45 and kept on coming.
 
QUOTE: "^ I have to disagree with the notion that having more capacity turns you into a "spray and pray" maniac. I often see this same idea floated when this discussion comes up. It's as much a falsehood as the idea that a 45 ACP is hard to control."

So true. You hear this allegation all the time and people pretty much accept it as gospel, much as some do when it comes to the same misinformation when hunting with a semi-auto rifle. Using ammunition judiciously and responsibly has everything to do with having proper training and has nothing to do with the type of firearm being used or its capacity.
 
As for cheaper...I'm not sure I agree cheaper is better for self defense.
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I said for non defensive purposes... like for training. You'll be more willing to train if your ammo doesn't cost $0.40 per round. I own a Beretta M9A1 and 0 Hi points, check my page. Two guns that are the same size, one is 9mm, one is .45acp, the 9mm will almost always carry more ammo. And who says having a higher capacity makes you spray and pray? It keeps you in the gunfight longer. Your personality and training are what will determine if you spray and pray. but hey, if you want to carry a .45, I'm sure you know how to use it, more power to you.
 
Chainsaw.

Tunnelrat is right. The military had the idea that if a man had a finer rifle and less ammo he would be forced to take the time to make better shots and the army would basiclly become one big force of DMRs. It turned out to be total bunk. Turns out he who throws more rounds wins. Its a gum fight, not a duel.
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More rounds fired with no hits will not win you anything. You have to hit what you are shooting at to win. Those hits in critical areas like the brain or heart whether 9mm or .45acp will stop an opponent. Most anywhere else it all depends on the opponent and whether they have drug induced strength or failure to feel pain.
 
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There are a ton of after action reports, via either the law enforcement community directly or the news media, that show how absurdly ineffective handgun rounds are at stopping or killing people.

The main service calibers of 9x19mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP all lack the overall velocity needed to cause large scale cavitation and damage along the wound channel, or to reliably tumble/frange and create many smaller wound channels upon impact.

They have effectively the same performance, overall: crappy.

The only advantages that can be argued among them are the sectional density and relative KE when defeating barriers. Especially in a law enforcement setting, where many of the gunfights originate in and around vehicles, this is a worthwhile consideration.

Past that, if you are talking about effectiveness on humans, you need to hit the CNS to create a stop. Hits to the major organs and tissues of the cardiovascular system are next in line, but take time.

A serious student of pistol gunfighting can find the information out there to make their own decisions. I've spent a lot of time on the subject, and concluded a long time ago that, outside of my issue weapons, 9mm was the way to go for the most opportunities to score the kinds of hits that end fights, and to allow me to press the engagement longer overall. You might look at the information that is available and come to other conclusions. Carry a 1911 if you want to. Most people that carry handguns for a living, especially those that go headlong into harms way (besides bringing a bunch of friends with rifles), either 1) have the choice made for them, or 2) typically use high capacity 9mm, or 3) both. If they deviate from that, they do so for very specific, articulable reasons.
 
They have effectively the same performance, overall: crappy.
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Yup. America is one the few industrialized countries that carries handguns as a PRIMARY weapon. It's because 1) we, as a society, are lazy and handguns are more convenient to carry and 2) we, as a society, don't want to give the appearance that we live in a police state by having a cop walking a beat with one of those horrible looking black rifles that make folks do evil things. Both ideas have proven deadly to many law enforcement officers over the years.

Especially in a law enforcement setting, where many of the gunfights originate in and around vehicles, this is a worthwhile consideration.
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Handguns don't do well with this either. We shoot cars regularly during training to show our officers exactly how INEFFECTIVE a pistol bullet, regardless of caliber, is against car bodies, including the soda pop can thick cars we drive today.

Carry a 1911 if you want to. Most people that carry handguns for a living, especially those that go headlong into harms way (besides bringing a bunch of friends with rifles), either 1) have the choice made for them, or 2) typically use high capacity 9mm, or 3) both. If they deviate from that, they do so for very specific, articulable reasons.
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I do carry a 1911. I am fortunate enough to work for an agency that still allows personal preference in duty pistol, within certain guidelines. The reason for this is simple math.

When a police administrator looks at policing as a business, mitigating liability SHOULD become a forethought.

It's well documented that a 90% shooter during training TYPICALLY becomes a 20% shooter when bullets start flying back at them. So if the training standard between pass and fail is 70%, you are wise to do EVRYTHING within your grasp to ensure that folks are carrying what they shoot the best, which in my agency's case, is allowing folks to do just that. I shoot a 1911 best.

Math time - If a 90%'er turns into a 20%'er, where does a 70%'er go?? Moreover, where do the bullets that miss their intended targets go? Short answer--- someplace you didn't want them to go. Hopefully not into the 10 year old kid in the nearby playground.

Forcing someone to carry a pistol they don't shoot or handle well is akin to the department buying tractor trailer units for officers to drive then being surprised when an officer don't drive it well and runs over some folks..........

When decisions are made, often times the wrong considerations are taken into account (logistics and cost) vs the considerations that matter more greatly. I understand that folks think it's a great idea for everyone to have the same gun so we can swap mags in a gunfight, so we all look the same for department photos, so we are only buying one caliber of ammo, so if you have to pick up my gun and use it's the same as yours, etc., but IMHO, those are considerations that I find less important than giving folks a better opportunity to put rounds on target when it matters.

Just my $.02
 
America is one the few industrialized countries that carries handguns as a PRIMARY weapon.
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I'm sure there are others who have traveled more than myself, but I have travelled more than most. Some to industrialized and some to developing countries. In my experience it is rather rare to see someone who handles what US police handle with a long-arm. In some "developed" countries they do not carry a firearm at all. Officers guarding static locations quite often have long arms or SMGs.
 
Officers guarding static locations quite often have long arms or SMGs.
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And those officers are their equivalent of our "patrol" officers. And their primary weapon is............. not a handgun.
 
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