I worked briefly with a young officer, whose brief career came to an end when in a foot chase with a perp the perp suddenly stopped, wheeled around with a .25 auto and fired one shot; a shot he probably couldn't repeat in a million years. Hit the officer square between the eyes. According to the M E, our officer was dead before he hit the ground. And with a cheap, stolen .25 auto, you know the ones that were made in Spain. I can't recall the make.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
A officer story
- Thread starter Frankie1449
- Start date
We stop people by poking holes in them, the more important the bits we poke holes in the quicker they stop. More than the size of the pokey thing it matters that we poke in the right place. It MAY be fair to say there is a floor of a minimum energy so we pokey poke deep enough to reach the vital bits however more than anything we have to pokey poke in the right spot. Lots of stories of nice smooth rifle pokey pokes in the wrong spot doing nothing to stop people despite how awesome rifle bulletts hitting gel blocks look in slow motion.
Sooooo. Use a decent round in a platform you hit with well, I like 45 just fine but it sure is not a sure thing!!
Sooooo. Use a decent round in a platform you hit with well, I like 45 just fine but it sure is not a sure thing!!
turtlehead
New member
This place has gone nutty lately.
FrankenMauser
New member
In my former life as a member of the military, I served with a former NYPD officer.
He always told a story about a man that soaked up 17 hits from the issued 9mm handguns (Glocks, I believe, but don't know for certain), and 6 rounds of .45 Auto received by a fellow officer.
The suspect continued on his drug-induced 'rampage' until he disemboweled himself on a fence (and got hung up on his own intestines), and survived to go to trial.
The officer shot by the suspect's .45 Auto didn't know he was hint until he realized that his leg wasn't working correctly. (Compound fracture!)
CNS.
Heart.
Lungs.
Nothing else matters.
'Caliber' is irrelevant.
He always told a story about a man that soaked up 17 hits from the issued 9mm handguns (Glocks, I believe, but don't know for certain), and 6 rounds of .45 Auto received by a fellow officer.
The suspect continued on his drug-induced 'rampage' until he disemboweled himself on a fence (and got hung up on his own intestines), and survived to go to trial.
The officer shot by the suspect's .45 Auto didn't know he was hint until he realized that his leg wasn't working correctly. (Compound fracture!)
CNS.
Heart.
Lungs.
Nothing else matters.
'Caliber' is irrelevant.
I was thinking more about this since my last post. It has, only indirectly, anything to do with handguns and their use against aggressive human attackers.
Many of us have deer hunted. Most of the time we are taking a shot on a non-adrenalized animal and have our time to pick our shot. For many of us all we can recall is the animal "falling in its tracks" on such a shot. Once upon a time while walking to my tree stand I jumped a good size doe (yes I have land-owner doe tags) that took off running. It was probably not the best judgement call but I decided to take a shot at this fully adrenalized deer as it was running away from me and made a wonderful (if ill advised) shot at about 30 yards on the animal (I was on the type of small ridge you find near creek bottoms - it was in the flood zone of the creek)
The hollow point .270 (possibly Winchester Fail Safe but its been a long time) absolutely destroyed both lungs and I don't remember finding anything substantial to the heart. It also exited near one front should (the animal was quartering away when I made the shot).
I'm sure those still reading are wondering "so?" The "so" is that this animal ran 250 yards or so including jumping a 6 foot creek. It fell outside of my vision but as I watched it following the shot I assumed I had missed and missed cleanly.
No normally concealable handgun even approaches the ability to do as much damage as that rifle round did and probably not even with several shots. To the best of my knowledge that animal was not high on any synthetic chemicals.
We train to fire center of mass and there is logic behind that training. However we need to abandon any thought that even the greatest .45, 10MM, 9MM, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, or any other concealable handgun regardless of ammo is going to is going to create a reliable and instant physiological stop of aggressive behavior.
Many of us have deer hunted. Most of the time we are taking a shot on a non-adrenalized animal and have our time to pick our shot. For many of us all we can recall is the animal "falling in its tracks" on such a shot. Once upon a time while walking to my tree stand I jumped a good size doe (yes I have land-owner doe tags) that took off running. It was probably not the best judgement call but I decided to take a shot at this fully adrenalized deer as it was running away from me and made a wonderful (if ill advised) shot at about 30 yards on the animal (I was on the type of small ridge you find near creek bottoms - it was in the flood zone of the creek)
The hollow point .270 (possibly Winchester Fail Safe but its been a long time) absolutely destroyed both lungs and I don't remember finding anything substantial to the heart. It also exited near one front should (the animal was quartering away when I made the shot).
I'm sure those still reading are wondering "so?" The "so" is that this animal ran 250 yards or so including jumping a 6 foot creek. It fell outside of my vision but as I watched it following the shot I assumed I had missed and missed cleanly.
No normally concealable handgun even approaches the ability to do as much damage as that rifle round did and probably not even with several shots. To the best of my knowledge that animal was not high on any synthetic chemicals.
We train to fire center of mass and there is logic behind that training. However we need to abandon any thought that even the greatest .45, 10MM, 9MM, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, or any other concealable handgun regardless of ammo is going to is going to create a reliable and instant physiological stop of aggressive behavior.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Sometimes the pelvic girdle is better than COM. A nasty wound, but it will LITERALLY stop the threat almost 100% of the time and it is a relatively large and stable target on a moving threat.
Onward Allusion
New member
Shot placement . . . Where was the BG hit?
g.willikers
New member
Survival after being shot probably depends more on the available medical treatment rather than the caliber of the weapon used.
As far as this goes, there are a good number of stories of being wounded by heavy caliber rifles and continuing to fight. The Brits noticed a good number of Argentines that just refused to go down after being hit by 7.62nato once or twice during the Falkland conflict. So... if a .308 center mass cannot be counted on to end the fight why are we trying to convince one another that any pistol caliber can (short of maybe .500 s&w, which actually has rifle energy and lobs a big 'ole hunk of lead that is literally likely to have "knock down" power)?
SocialAnarchist
Moderator
I don't think really that anyone is saying that the .45acp is a super round, it is clear that some, myself included, prefer it over the 9mm round.
It is funny though that whenever the debate erupts the 9mm crowd all claim that the "Mystical stopping power" of modern 9mm is equivalent to that of the .45acp. On the other hand I have never heard any .45acp owner claim that his round of choice is the equivalent of the 9mm.
Shoot whatever you want, just make your shots count. That's what really matters anyways.
It is funny though that whenever the debate erupts the 9mm crowd all claim that the "Mystical stopping power" of modern 9mm is equivalent to that of the .45acp. On the other hand I have never heard any .45acp owner claim that his round of choice is the equivalent of the 9mm.
Shoot whatever you want, just make your shots count. That's what really matters anyways.
Sometimes the pelvic girdle is better than COM
I came into LE in 1994. My first formal training involved what was called the "vertical zipper".
At 7 yards, using a 6 shot 357 Mag, letting the recoil do the "vertical" work, the first 2 shots were to the pelvis, the remainder were vertical along the line of a coat zipper (imaginary line up the middle) ending at about the nose.
Anyway, the focus was getting those first 2 shots into the pelvic girdle and doing damage to that mass of bone. The idea was that even if the remainder of the shots proved non fatal, the bad guy ain't chasing you with non-functioning legs from a mushy pelvis, and there'a a high likelihood of massive blood loss from bone fragments tearing up the major blood vessels that travel through there.
We trained that way up into the 2000's, but apparently at some point, shooting someone in the groin became too "un-PC" to be taught anymore. I still mention it to new recruits during firearms training that I'm involved in.
I don't think really that anyone is saying that the .45acp is a super round, it is clear that some, myself included, prefer it over the 9mm round.
Sure but when an example of a 9MM is offered and the counter premise is offered that is basically "he would have stopped had it been a .45" it does present the .45 as some super round.
SocialAnarchist
Moderator
Lohman446
Quote:
I don't think really that anyone is saying that the .45acp is a super round, it is clear that some, myself included, prefer it over the 9mm round.
Sure but when an example of a 9MM is offered and the counter premise is offered that is basically "he would have stopped had it been a .45" it does present the .45 as some super round.
I suppose so, but then again how many people do we have on this forum that every single time someone mentions wanting a pistol says buy a Glock. Or if someone had trouble with a pistol they post "Well that wouldn't have happened if you bought a Glock." Everyone has favorites and pretty soon nothing else matters but bolstering the legend of your favorite whether the story is true, an exaggeration, or an outright lie.
Honestly, as I have stated before I have both .45acp and 9mm, as well as a few others, I feel confident and safe with all of them. But the truth is I shoot the .45acp the best and until that changes it will be my first choice. Multiple hits, even with less rounds is far better than multiple misses with more rounds.
Honestly, as I have stated before I have both .45acp and 9mm, as well as a few others, I feel confident and safe with all of them. But the truth is I shoot the .45acp the best and until that changes it will be my first choice. Multiple hits, even with less rounds is far better than multiple misses with more rounds.
The best way I've heard this said by a firearms instructor that was old when I was young..............
"Son, you will never miss fast enough to win a gunfight."
Everyone has favorites and pretty soon nothing else matters but bolstering the legend of your favorite whether the story is true, an exaggeration, or an outright lie.
That may be so, but that doesn't mean we have to encourage that behavior. I try to dissuade most people, myself included, from becoming too focused on one brand, caliber, etc.
Everyone has favorites and pretty soon nothing else matters but bolstering the legend of your favorite whether the story is true, an exaggeration, or an outright lie.
That may be so, but that doesn't mean we have to encourage that behavior. I try to dissuade most people, myself included, from becoming too focused on one brand, caliber, etc.
I guess I do have a favorite, but I view all common service calibers (9mm, 40, 45) to be adequate and don't feel that anyone is "undergunned" with any of them. Therefore, I don't feel the need to push my preference for one over the other. I just don't understand why others will go to lengths in order to argue for or against something that matters about as much as a 4" barrel vs a 5" barrel in the grand scheme of things.
TunnelRat has a valid point. And in line with that there are calibers and weaponry designed for certain missions or goals to be accomplished.
If we are on a war footing and according to ROE we must use FMJ rounds, I would opt for a .45 FMJ over a 9mm FMJ. Quite simply, I want the one that gives me the bigger hole. Stopping power - commonly referred to as a man-stopper - is mythological. I can personally attest to that.
But, if in a civilian setting looking for expansion in a round in a SD situation I will go for either 9mm or .45 depending on the pistol I happen to select that day.
If we are on a war footing and according to ROE we must use FMJ rounds, I would opt for a .45 FMJ over a 9mm FMJ. Quite simply, I want the one that gives me the bigger hole. Stopping power - commonly referred to as a man-stopper - is mythological. I can personally attest to that.
But, if in a civilian setting looking for expansion in a round in a SD situation I will go for either 9mm or .45 depending on the pistol I happen to select that day.
QUOTE: "...I don't see how anyone can argue anything other than shot placement when it comes to handgun calibers..."
Well of course we can! Discussions can be interesting and informative if we keep our minds open. Those that don't want to "argue" a certain subject aren't required to engage if they don't want to.
I don't think anyone would seriously argue that shot placement isn't the most important variable when it comes to stopping an armed attacker. But this is a gun site and people naturally want to discuss types of guns, caliber, capacity, etc. If only shot placement counts when it comes to self-defense, we'd all carry .22s, shoot the assailant(s) between the eyes and be done with it. But the tricky thing about "shot placement" is that, no matter the amount of training and practice, in the heat of the battle, it isn't always easy to come by...
Well of course we can! Discussions can be interesting and informative if we keep our minds open. Those that don't want to "argue" a certain subject aren't required to engage if they don't want to.
I don't think anyone would seriously argue that shot placement isn't the most important variable when it comes to stopping an armed attacker. But this is a gun site and people naturally want to discuss types of guns, caliber, capacity, etc. If only shot placement counts when it comes to self-defense, we'd all carry .22s, shoot the assailant(s) between the eyes and be done with it. But the tricky thing about "shot placement" is that, no matter the amount of training and practice, in the heat of the battle, it isn't always easy to come by...