A different perspective on Birdshot for HD
- Thread starter Webleymkv
- Start date
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Theories get severely beaten by facts every day. 
Test your stuff. 
FWIW, the local department of corrections uses # 5 birdshot on inmates in concrete cells. Closer you are, the more deadly a shotgun is - we adjust the loads to account for our individual circumstances - which is a huge advantage for shotguns. If I was in an apartment, I'd be using large birdshot (4s or bigger).
To the OP - I suspect that the .17 and larger shot sizes may indeed be "the answer" as far as a balance of effectiveness and limited penetration goes. Be great if Shawn can get some testing done.... (hint, hint)
I have killed critters with bird shot - you do indeed have to be close. "Hard off the barrel" is one way of putting it. As your need for effective distance grows, the shot size also needs to grow. In my neighborhood, with multiple houses around, I'm comfortable using # 2 lead shot loads. My 3rd and 4th loads are # 4 buckshot. Slugs on the sidesaddle.
Test your stuff. FWIW, the local department of corrections uses # 5 birdshot on inmates in concrete cells. Closer you are, the more deadly a shotgun is - we adjust the loads to account for our individual circumstances - which is a huge advantage for shotguns. If I was in an apartment, I'd be using large birdshot (4s or bigger).
To the OP - I suspect that the .17 and larger shot sizes may indeed be "the answer" as far as a balance of effectiveness and limited penetration goes. Be great if Shawn can get some testing done.... (hint, hint)
I have killed critters with bird shot - you do indeed have to be close. "Hard off the barrel" is one way of putting it. As your need for effective distance grows, the shot size also needs to grow. In my neighborhood, with multiple houses around, I'm comfortable using # 2 lead shot loads. My 3rd and 4th loads are # 4 buckshot. Slugs on the sidesaddle.
I'm not sure how well either the Remington duplex HD loads Lance was talking about, or the new Hevi-Shot Personal Defense (or "Maximum Defense" as they seem to be calling it now) round I mentioned earlier penetrate, but after patterning the latter I wasn't too impressed.
At ten yards the Hevi-Shot PD load, with its 35 twenty-caliber T pellets, threw a pattern twelve to fourteen inches wide out of my Mossberg 500 house gun (which is fitted with an old-style 18 1/2" smoothbored, IC-choked "Slugster" barrel). I get pretty much the same results with Winchester number six field loads, for less money. Apparently whatever magic Hevi-Shot uses to make their 3" Dead Coyote round throw tight patterns of T shot is missing from the Personal/Maximum Defense loading.
On the other hand, Federal's low-recoil "tactical" 00 buck round with the FliteControl wad out of the Mossy made one ragged three-inch oblong hole in the target at that distance...most of which, I think, was the wad. And the cheap Estate 00 buck threw a four-inch pattern at ten yards.
I'm still, reluctantly, using that Hevi-Shot ammo for that first round in the magazine - as an apartment dweller, I suspect engagement ranges will be considerably less than ten yards! - but needless to say the next four rounds behind it are all Federal low-recoil buckshot...with five more on the butt cuff.
At ten yards the Hevi-Shot PD load, with its 35 twenty-caliber T pellets, threw a pattern twelve to fourteen inches wide out of my Mossberg 500 house gun (which is fitted with an old-style 18 1/2" smoothbored, IC-choked "Slugster" barrel). I get pretty much the same results with Winchester number six field loads, for less money. Apparently whatever magic Hevi-Shot uses to make their 3" Dead Coyote round throw tight patterns of T shot is missing from the Personal/Maximum Defense loading.
On the other hand, Federal's low-recoil "tactical" 00 buck round with the FliteControl wad out of the Mossy made one ragged three-inch oblong hole in the target at that distance...most of which, I think, was the wad. And the cheap Estate 00 buck threw a four-inch pattern at ten yards.
I'm still, reluctantly, using that Hevi-Shot ammo for that first round in the magazine - as an apartment dweller, I suspect engagement ranges will be considerably less than ten yards! - but needless to say the next four rounds behind it are all Federal low-recoil buckshot...with five more on the butt cuff.
birdshot
Shawn the cops shot him with standard 9mm fmj police issue. If he had been shot in the gut with a one oz load of #6 at the same distance he would not have gotten away. You are comparing apples to oranges. My challenge still stands . let me shoot you from across the room. Those of you who doubt. Take your 12 ga out and see for yourself. Is your arm tougher than a two by four? try it and see.
Shawn the cops shot him with standard 9mm fmj police issue. If he had been shot in the gut with a one oz load of #6 at the same distance he would not have gotten away. You are comparing apples to oranges. My challenge still stands . let me shoot you from across the room. Those of you who doubt. Take your 12 ga out and see for yourself. Is your arm tougher than a two by four? try it and see.
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
I think you meant to type JHP?
Not unless the shot damages structures critical to his immediate survival.
I was addressing your belief that a bad guy will be stopped by pain. Interviews with people who've been shot have revealed that many of them didn't feel any pain at all. The feeling was of a numb impact. Indeed the stretching of nerve tissues, caused by temporary cavitation, may disrupt pain transmissions to the brain, much like how your lower arm goes numb when you hit your "funnybone".
Let's try your test using a criminally insane prison inmate who's serving a life sentence. We'll sweeten his motivation by placing an extremely attractive female, a million dollars, and a bottle of his favorite booze about 10 feet behind you and tell him that he can not only have his freedom but all the prizes behind you if he can inflict a fatal wound on you with a Buck knife before you stop him. (If he's smart he'll move quickly and outmaneuver your ability to put your muzzle on him for a clean shot.)
Cheers!
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
what is the point of using bird shot if you are using bird shot with similar penetration to buck shot? What is the advantage?
Shawn Dodson
Moderator
The smaller the shot size the larger the total surface area, which translates into greater potential tissue crush volume.
A person doesn't have to be drugged up to stop feeling pain. A person only has to have the adrenaline rush that comes from fearing for his life - such as when being shot at. People who have been shot have reported feeling no pain even when vitals are hit yet feeling incredible pain if a bone is broken. (src: Lt. Col. David Grossman)
I would only trust bird shot in the same way it's used against bears: in the face to knock out senses. I'd rather not train myself for anything other than center mass.
I would only trust bird shot in the same way it's used against bears: in the face to knock out senses. I'd rather not train myself for anything other than center mass.