A different perspective on Birdshot for HD

[ you won't blow thru 2 walls and kill you're wife down the hall.]

Regarding this, and other comments abot minimal birdshot penetration in a 2x4, etc, etc, etc:

FWIW, a LONG time ago, when I was young (26) and relatively inexperienced, I caused a 12ga AD (accidental discharge) INSIDE my home.

It turned out that I had inadequately cleared the pump/slide shotgun ( I had just returned home from hunting), and a shell had hung up in the magazine through several "proof" clearing "pumps" - but fed unseen into the chamber during the last "pump".

When I snapped the trigger, the charge of #6 birdshot penetrated three interior walls of plaster/wood lath/wood door casings/2x4's, before the pellets lodged deeply inside both a closet's solid wood door jamb and the home's exterior wall. :eek:

The shot charge passed 10" above my firstborn's crib, which was in that next room. :barf:

Fortunately, the crib was empty at the time, the baby (4 mos old) being in the room with me - just scared from the noise. :)

My wife (God bless her), later talked me out of getting rid of my guns, and giving up hunting/shooting - but I can tell you, I sure saw the elephant that day !

For HD, at room-clearing distances, it just doesn't much matter WHAT is used in a shotgun. period.

.
 
Last edited:
Sure birdshot will work if close enough.

00 too, only there close enough is more like 25 yards than 25 feet.

Since we cannot predict the distance of our next firefight, IMO best to prepare for the worst case scenario.

Three sentences about wraps this whole conversation up in a nutshell...this is why I keep my SD shotgun loaded with 00 Buck.
 
If you are willing to bet your life and that of your family's on an arm wound stopping some junkie high on PCP then all I can say is good luck to you. I will stick with buck shot as I know it will go through said arm and into the bad guy's chest.

Let's not go all mall ninja here, talking about threats more imagined than real. Not to mention the fact that at short range birdshot will go all the way through a man's arm and still kill whatever's on the other side.
 
Quote:
If you are willing to bet your life and that of your family's on an arm wound stopping some junkie high on PCP then all I can say is good luck to you. I will stick with buck shot as I know it will go through said arm and into the bad guy's chest.

Let's not go all mall ninja here, talking about threats more imagined than real. Not to mention the fact that at short range birdshot will go all the way through a man's arm and still kill whatever's on the other side.


Mall Ninja? Did I mention Zombies or Blue Helmets somewhere in my post and forget about it? Do you guarantee that the guy breaking into your or my house is not hopped up? If birdshot is so great, why don't SWAT teams or the Military use it? Given the poor penetration of birdshot in ballistic gelatin, I will not trust it to go through an arm and then through a chest especially after clothing is factored in.
 
Mall Ninja? Did I mention Zombies or Blue Helmets somewhere in my post and forget about it? Do you guarantee that the guy breaking into your or my house is not hopped up? If birdshot is so great, why don't SWAT teams or the Military use it? Given the poor penetration of birdshot in ballistic gelatin, I will not trust it to go through an arm and then through a chest especially after clothing is factored in.

The bogeyman of some guy hopped up on PCP with no motive other than doing horrible things to your family is so overstated as to be almost a self-parody. I'd like to see some statistics on exactly how many home defense incidents actually conform to that pattern, as opposed to the kind you see described here--potential burglars, local hoods, or aggressive neighbors.

If we're inventing scenarios, one could just as easily--and more realistically--assume an invader with a kevlar vest, so buckshot wouldn't be effective. Better step up to armor piercing rifle rounds.

Nobody's saying that birdshot penetrates as much as buckshot. That's rather the point. What I am saying, as well as others, is that basically any shell that's coming out of a 12 gauge at home defense ranges will be lethal as long as you hit your target.

Use whatever you like for home defense. My own shotgun is normally loaded with number two steel, and both buckshot and slugs in reserve for special situations. But don't run around telling people that anything less than double-barrel magnum slugs will just bounce off the bad guys, or insisting that people who choose to use lighter shot loads are going to have their families overrun and eaten. It's a bit rude.
 
OK, so how well would "T" shot (.20 caliber) work for home defense?

That's the size of shot used in Hevi Shot's new "Personal Defense" load.

Since I live in an apartment I'm worried about overpenetration, which would be a problem with buckshot (especially 00). Up to now I've loaded my HD shotgun (Mossberg 500) with two rounds of #6s first in the mag followed by 00 (chamber left empty for safety). I've recently switched to the Hevi Shot "Personal Defense" loading for the first couple of rounds out of concerns that the #6 might not do quite enough damage to stop an attacker.

The Personal Defense loads use the same shot as Hevi Shot's "Dead Coyote" load in 12 gauge, which is supposedly hell on coyotes out to fifty yards. I've heard it makes a good HD load as well, but Dead Coyote is also a three-inch magnum load...which makes it overkill, at least on my shoulder.

Well, this is what the OP was talking about. How well do these heavier pellets perform?

I tried some Hevishot Waterfowl loads with #6 shot, and found that they patterned way tighter, especially compared with lead.

I made the mistake of using a 1 1/4 oz load of #6 Hevishot while hunting Chukar, and it was a complete disaster.

While I easily hit the bird, the pattern was way too dense. And the shot was so tough that it completely shredded the bird. We picked the bird up, and one could still vaguely see that it was indeed a bird. The animal was completely destroyed though, and a total waste.

Here is a photo taken of it after we picked it up. This is all that remained. We could not find anything else:


chukar_email2.jpg



So I would not rule out that these new Hevishot and other tungsten loads will not be effective against humans. Especially since they are using far larger shot sizes.

Hevishot does not perform like lead.


.
 
The specs on that HeviShot ammo at their website does look impressive. This new self-defense load is actually a low-recoil load, that is less powerful than their Dead Coyote Ammo. But it is in a 2 3/4" shell, so that it will fit all shotguns. Still, it shoots 35 .20 caliber T size Hevishot at a very high 1,350 fps. That beats the velocity of most handgun ammo.

With that super hard and heavy shot, such a load would definitely cause major mayhem on the human body.

But if it is not enough for you, then simply go with their Dead Coyote Magnum loads. The 3.5 inch 12 gauge Mag load holds a whopping 56 of those .20 caliber T size Hevishot, still going at 1,350 fps. And the 3" Magnum load holds 52 of those T shot, traveling at 1,300 fps.

No wonder they claim that those loads will drop a coyote stone dead at 70 yards.

Man, that is an incredible amount of firepower for any high capacity shotgun to have, loaded with any of those rounds, when you do the math.

In my 8+1 shotgun, just using the new 2 3/4 inch low recoil self defense load comes to 9 x 35 = 315 of those .20 caliber T Shot Hevishot! That is a lot of projectiles to be able to send down range without reloading.

Go with the 3" Magnum load, and the number becomes astronomical: 416 .20 caliber T shot in just a 7 +1 shotgun.

.
 
Referring to The Box O’ Truth:
LanceOregon said:
Oh, that website is so ridiculously funny and absurd! It always cracks me up!

If I ever hear of reports of a dozen pieces of sheetrock going around murdering and robbing folks, I might then decide to consider the info that is posted on that website.

Absurd and ridiculous? Unlike the swarm of Dimestore Hotdogs who inhabit cyberspace, the man makes no claims to being an expert. He shoots a gun (actually shoots one for real, not just in his murky mind) and posts the results. If more people really tested loads and their performance on various media, just maybe some of the wild internet myths would be quieted. (I would have used “dispelled” instead of “quieted”, sounds classier, but I don’t know how to spell it). Unfortunately, that would require more effort than a lot of people are unwilling to exert.

DC
 
I could see using birdshot in an apartment were its
close quarters and your afraid of over-penetration.

Still 00 buck or slugs do the job
 
This reinforces the notion of doing research to find what fits your situation best. where my house is located, and the interior layout of my home. I do not have to worry about over penetration into other houses or bedrooms. Due to that I have the most powerful rounds I can get my hands on.

Dave
 
Mall Ninja? Did I mention Zombies or Blue Helmets somewhere in my post and forget about it? Do you guarantee that the guy breaking into your or my house is not hopped up? If birdshot is so great, why don't SWAT teams or the Military use it? Given the poor penetration of birdshot in ballistic gelatin, I will not trust it to go through an arm and then through a chest especially after clothing is factored in.

Well said. There's a reason those who take shotguns into harm's way use buckshot and slugs. Birdshot might stop an aggressor, but, all things being equal (shot placement, etc.), buckshot will be more likely to stop the aggressor. If all I had available to me was birdshot, I would use it. Given the choice? No chance.

Some links to consider:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=275185
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#SHOTGUN%20AMMUNITION
 
Absurd and ridiculous? Unlike the swarm of Dimestore Hotdogs who inhabit cyberspace, the man makes no claims to being an expert. He shoots a gun (actually shoots one for real, not just in his murky mind) and posts the results.

Man, that is all well and good, and it is not what I am talking about. What I am saying is this:

What on earth does shooting into a dozen Sheetrock panels have to do with the effectiveness of any ammo in stopping a human being?

Answer: Absolutely nothing. Humans are not made out of sheetrock.

At least I'm not! :)

Besides, his own test data does not even back up his conclusions. He labeled the #4 Buckshot ammo to be greatly inferior to the 00 Buckshot ammo, based on a mere unscientific opinion that it would not destroy vital organs. Yet the #4 Buckshot penetrated 6 sheetrock panels, compared to the 8 that the 00 Buckshot ammo did. So how does that test data support such a conclusion? Answer: It doesn't.

He does not even bring up the issue of harder copper plated buckshot, which is known for penetrating deeper. So how deep would copper plated buckshot have gone?

I have a feeling that at least some of this new ammo would be extremely deadly. Especially the loads using the .20 caliber Hevishot. They each have 44 ft/lbs of energy, and depending on the specific load you shoot, you are talking 35 or 52 of those shot being fired at the target with each round.

-
 
Last edited:
Well said. There's a reason those who take shotguns into harm's way use buckshot and slugs. Birdshot might stop an aggressor, but, all things being equal (shot placement, etc.)


It is almost like no one here even bothered to read the OP's post, as no one is even addressing or discussing the subject that he brought up.

And for everyone who had a hard time following his post, let me try to sum it up:

Could shot that is made out of much heavier and harder material than lead be as effective as larger sized buckshot?

That is definitely the case when it comes to Hevishot, as it is both much harder, but also heavier too. The shot sizes he talked about ranged from BB to T. That is .177 to .20 caliber, which is hardly an insignificant caliber.

To me, that is the subject that he has attempted to raise here. But instead of attempting to actually discuss that point, most everyone just seems to be restating old comments and arguments that we have all heard 100 times before on this subject. No one seems to even want to acknowledge that Remington and Hevishot both feel that these will be good self-defense loads.

Did no one here except myself even bother to take a look at the Hevishot and Remington websites to check out these new defensive loads?? Here are links to product info about these new products below, to make it easier for everyone.

Here is info on Remington's new High Density Ultimate Home Defense ammo:

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/home_defense/


And here is the info on the new Hevishot Maximum Defense:

http://www.hevishot.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41&Itemid=57

http://www.hevishot.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=11

http://www.hevishot.com/images/stories/sales sheets/HEVI-Shot_Max_Defense_2009.pdf


You can also look up the Hevishot Dead Coyote loads there too, which are actually even more powerful.


.
 
Quote:
Mall Ninja? Did I mention Zombies or Blue Helmets somewhere in my post and forget about it? Do you guarantee that the guy breaking into your or my house is not hopped up? If birdshot is so great, why don't SWAT teams or the Military use it? Given the poor penetration of birdshot in ballistic gelatin, I will not trust it to go through an arm and then through a chest especially after clothing is factored in.

The bogeyman of some guy hopped up on PCP with no motive other than doing horrible things to your family is so overstated as to be almost a self-parody. I'd like to see some statistics on exactly how many home defense incidents actually conform to that pattern, as opposed to the kind you see described here--potential burglars, local hoods, or aggressive neighbors.

If we're inventing scenarios, one could just as easily--and more realistically--assume an invader with a kevlar vest, so buckshot wouldn't be effective. Better step up to armor piercing rifle rounds.

Nobody's saying that birdshot penetrates as much as buckshot. That's rather the point. What I am saying, as well as others, is that basically any shell that's coming out of a 12 gauge at home defense ranges will be lethal as long as you hit your target.

Use whatever you like for home defense. My own shotgun is normally loaded with number two steel, and both buckshot and slugs in reserve for special situations. But don't run around telling people that anything less than double-barrel magnum slugs will just bounce off the bad guys, or insisting that people who choose to use lighter shot loads are going to have their families overrun and eaten. It's a bit rude.

Do you seriously think that a bad guy wearing kevlar is more common than a bad guy on drugs:confused:? I never said slugs are bare minimum so do not go making stuff up. Most crimes committed by junkies are burglaries to get stuff to sell to buy drugs. There is nothing remotely ridiculous or paranoid about that fact. Regardless of whether or not the bad guy is hopped up, winging him is not a surefire way to stop him in his tracks. Hitting the CNS or a head shot is the best way to do that. Birdshot to the arm as mentioned in the original quote may eventually be lethal, theoretically but given that the arm is not part of the CNS it is unlikely to STOP the bad guy immediately. Hitting the CNS requires the shot to go through arm AND through the chest. The FBI came up with 12" of penetration after extensive tests. Birdshot cannot be trusted to do that. Sorry for the RUDE awakening.
 
Last edited:
I knew a deputy who was shot in the bicep with birdshot. For all practical purposes, it blew his arm off. He was shot from the front. They were able to reattach his arm, but it didn't work too well.
 
Could shot that is made out of much heavier and harder material than lead be as effective as larger sized buckshot?

That is definitely the case when it comes to Hevishot, as it is both much harder, but also heavier too. The shot sizes he talked about ranged from BB to T. That is .177 to .20 caliber, which is hardly an insignificant caliber.

You sure about that? Do you have any data to back up that assertion?

No one seems to even want to acknowledge that Remington and Hevishot both feel that these will be good self-defense loads.

I don't care what an ammo manufacturer FEELS is a good self-defense load; there are plenty of rounds that do not deliver on the manufacturer's claims. Show me some evidence that the rounds work as advertised. If I can use 00 buckshot, that I know works well, and is recommended by those whose profession is ballistics, I'm not going to gamble on something just because of what the manufacturer claims.


Did no one here except myself even bother to take a look at the Hevishot and Remington websites to check out these new defensive loads?? Here are links to product info about these new products below, to make it easier for everyone.

Here is info on Remington's new High Density Ultimate Home Defense ammo:

http://www.remington.com/products/am.../home_defense/


And here is the info on the new Hevishot Maximum Defense:

http://www.hevishot.com/index.php?op...d=41&Itemid=57

http://www.hevishot.com/index.php?op...d=50&Itemid=11

http://www.hevishot.com/images/stori...fense_2009.pdf


You can also look up the Hevishot Dead Coyote loads there too, which are actually even more powerful.

I looked at the links you provided; I have to say I am not impressed. From the first link:
Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.


Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence.

What is "terminal energy"? How about "one-shot confidence"? Sounds like marketing copy to me.

From the third link:

FEATURES:
- .20-Caliber (T Size) Maximum Density Specially Formulated Pellets
- Devastating Knockdown Power
- 4 Times More Pellets Than OO Buckshot For Greater "Cone Of Lethality"
- 2-3/4 Inch Shell Works In Any 12-Gauge Shotgun
- Low Recoil For Solid On-Target Repeatability

What is "devastating knockdown power"? How about "cone of lethality"? All I see on the links you provided is marketing and buzzwords.
 
ADB writes:
The bogeyman of some guy hopped up on PCP with no motive other than doing horrible things to your family is so overstated as to be almost a self-parody. I'd like to see some statistics on exactly how many home defense incidents actually conform to that pattern, as opposed to the kind you see described here--potential burglars, local hoods, or aggressive neighbors.
The estranged husband in this incident wasn't high on any drugs - just hell bent determined to kill his wife (the boyfriend kept an SKS under the bed but didn't have time to retrieve it): http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/1997/jul/22/port-orchard-victim-feared-estranged-husband/

A defender's house can be wrongly targeted, either by mistaken address or mistaken identity and the defender ends up with a situation he/she never imagined.

B78-22250 writes:
Well I guess it is time to put a stop to this. To all of those who think bird shot is not effective on the BG. I am asking for any one of you to step up to the ten foot line and let me shoot your arm with a 1oz load of #6 from a 12ga. You can wear a heavy coat if you want to. Point is BG will be without use of one arm and in serious pain. The threat will be stopped. If you don't agree then step up to the line my friend. Fact is none of you will stand up and let me shoot you with a .25 auto.
Problem is nobody in his or her right mind would submit to your test. But how about somebody who isn't in his right mind, like the recent fatal shootings of four Lakewood (WA) PD officers, in which the last officer to be slain shot the killer dead center of mass, just above the belly button. The murderer, who is reported to have been suffering mental problems, escaped and was hardly slowed by his gunshot wound, and was shot dead two days later by a Seattle PD officer.

Why was the killer seemingly unaffected by his gunshot wound? The bullet didn't damage tissues vital to his immediate survival. The wound was a nonvital wound, either because the bullet didn't penetrate deeply enough or its path intersected nonvital tissues only.

The risk with birdshot is inadequate penetration to reliably reach and damage tissues vital to immediate survival.

In the FBI-Miami shootout FBI SA Edmundo Mireles was shot in the forearm by a .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt. The arm was unusable but Mireles fought on to shoot and kill both Platt and Matix. Mireles' arm stopped the bullet from reaching and penetrating his upper torso.

Most victims of gunshot wounds report feeling no pain - either there is no perception of having been shot or a feeling of numbness.
 
If the smaller shot sizes in exotic tungsten etc loadings will reliably penetrate as well as buckshot, wouldn't that negate the "it won't over penetrate" factor that is the supposed selling point of birdshot for defense in the first place?

Lance: the point of BoT is to demonstrate how many interior walls a given round will penetrate, not to demonstrate terminal effectiveness.
 
Back
Top