A different perspective on Birdshot for HD

I know a man who was shot at across the room distance with a load of #8 birdshot. It was not a shallow wound. The ER surgeon pulled the wad off his spine. Blew out part of a lung.
Even a "shallow wound" an inch in diameter and 5" into the body cavity is pretty damned devastating. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply not thinking correctly. And anyone with such a wound will cease all hostile activity immediately.
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I agree. But, is this one of those "isolated" events or is this result typical of using birdshot?

Im not saying birshot is ineffective...not at all. But, Ive heard many accounts of peeps being stopped "dead in their tracks" by a .22 caliber as well.

What I mean is, does birshot truly have the overall same "shock"/damage/stopping effect that 00 Buck does? For now, I shall remain dubious on this one.
 
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Even if an arm happened to get in the way, a bloody stump would be all that would be left and massive blood loss would result. A second shot could be applied if needed. Do you think a .38 would keep moving in a straight line in that situation without the need for a second shot? I also know an ER doc and he pulled a wad outta a guy DOA. Birdshot kills as dead as anything at close range, period end of story. Buck is fine also but you are LIABLE for every pellet big or small that might hit a bystander. Bird shot has the most limited penetration and in my opinion would be the only responsible choice in an apartment setting. Buck is best for open spaces or where longer shots are needed. Arguing that one shot fits all situations "best" is rediculous. rc
 
Do you think a .38 would keep moving in a straight line in that situation without the need for a second shot?
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????

I also know an ER doc and he pulled a wad outta a guy DOA. Birdshot kills as dead as anything at close range, period end of story.
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It might...depending on shot placement. Subjective.

Buck is fine also but you are LIABLE for every pellet big or small that might hit a bystander.
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...along with anything else fired out of a barrel, regardless of caliber. Birdshot is certainly not exempt from this rule.

Bird shot has the most limited penetration and in my opinion would be the only responsible choice in an apartment setting. Buck is best for open spaces or where longer shots are needed.
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This is subjective....

Arguing that one shot fits all situations "best" is ridiculous.
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For the most part I agree with this. Even so...buckshot is a more versatile round vs. birdshot, IMHO.
 
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Even if an arm happened to get in the way, a bloody stump would be all that would be left and massive blood loss would result.
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FBI Agent Edmundo Mireles was hit in the arm by a .223 bullet fired by Michael Platt during the 1986 shootout in Miami. The wound completely disabled Mireles' arm but he went on to kill both Platt and Matix afterward.

There's a lot of hypothesizing going here about the wounding effects of 12 gauge birdshot but no data to support the claims. I'm on field assigment and I don't have access to my wound ballistics library otherwise I'd provide some of my own.

Beware of those who state opinions but don't provide data to support their claims, myself included.
 
Im sure most of you have visited this site, but here it goes!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Basically you will find that whether using 00 Buck or birdshot (or slugs for that matter), there are certainly compromises/choices to be made. Ditto if you are using a handgun for HD.

Of course, Im sure results will vary as there are many factors at play here.

Its interesting though, I have yet to find any solid data concerning low recoil 00 Buckshot [9 pellet] (my preference). Im only assuming its because the "low recoil" version may be considered a "specialty" round. Who knows? Regardless, given the lower velocity of such loads [1100 or so] vs. the 1300+ of "standard" 00 Buckshot, it would be interesting to see the comparisons.
 
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I agree. But, is this one of those "isolated" events or is this "par for the course" results typical of using birdshot?
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Birdshot doesn't magically bounce off of anything that's not birds. You're still talking about dumping 400+ grains of lead into your target at high velocity and point blank range. The performance isn't really going to vary that much.
 
I'm the OP, please let's not devolve in to the same old arguments about birdshot vs. buckshot vs. slug, that wasn't why I started the thread. I'm not at all interested in using fine birdshot (upland game loads) because I don't believe they offer adequte penetration. Likewise, I'm not interested in using coarse Buckshot (0, 00 or 000) because the pellet counts seem somewhat underwhelming to me. What I am interested in is how BB or coarser birdshot compares, with regards to penetration, to #1 or finer buckshot (particularly #4). From what I've seen so far, it looks as though my original thoughts on the matter are probably pretty well on: Penetration of very coarse birdshot is somewhat similar to that of fine buckshot with a substantially higher pellet count which in turn is likely to contribute to a denser pattern.
 
Well the new HD rounds are being called "duplex" as they are a combination of two different pellet sizes, something that I've experimented with for years since I first read of Buck & Ball loads in muskets during the F&I and Rev War period...

#2 Buck and #2 Bird work great together
#4 Buck and #B or #1 Bird work well...
#BBB is best of all with either of the above two--damn hard to find though!
#F and #2 Bird are devastating on coyotes/foxes/feral dogs to 30 yards
#TT and #BB work nearly as well
#000 Buck works best with #2 bird
#0000 Buck works best with #2 bird as well...

The statement of physics is correct, 1.5 oz of bird, buck or slug will recoil with the same velocity but will NOT hit with the same energy and it is being displaced over a greater amount of surface area...Granted at 5 to 10 yards, (typical room distances) it really won't make much of a difference but what if you live in a long ranchhouse and the armed BG is breaking in to the garage 15, 20, 25 yards away from your bedroom and coming through that door...

I hate pump action shotguns with a passion and my HD gun is an exposed hammer 12 bore Rossi Coach gun for me and each of the daughter's rooms (4) and beside my wife's side of the bed is a 20 bore version of the same gun...Left barrel is loaded #2/2 and right is #4/2 and depending on distance is which barrel gets cocked first...If something does happen, we all congregate in the twins room as they are directly at the end of the hallway and offers the best field (lane) of fire...

There is one fallacy though for HD that is constantly bandied about and that's about slugs...If you want to shoot a horking big single projectile at the miscreant then get a rifle or pistol as you no longer have a shotgun but a rifle--whether smoothbore (old days called a musket) or rifled don't matter as your penetration will be the same as with hunting rounds out of a rifles or hollow points out of a pistol and no they're not frangible in the least!

A shotgun projects a string of shot that the target collides into...you do not aim a shotgun but point it as there isn't a rear sight--excluding ghost rings etc. for "tactical" pursuits by LEOs or military who might have to take out an engine block or two which we as home defenders damn well better not do--no longer Casrtle Doctrine!

N.B., All HD rounds are either lead or copper plated lead, no Bismuth, steel, Hex whatever, just lead...

I had a saddlemaker make me a barrel sleeve--keeps your hands from getting burned from hot steel or frozen with cold steel, that included a loop to secure a small hi-intensity flashlight as that is one "tacticool" device that any and every HD gun should have...He also made a Cobra style sling and a slip on, tie up recoil pad with raised cheekpiece and shell loops for the butt but those aren't necessities but makes it easier to carry in the filed when hunting...
 
Remington offered duplex loads years ago - they were a flop. The patterns were poor and the ammunition did not perform as advertised.
 
Birdshot doesn't magically bounce off of anything that's not birds. You're still talking about dumping 400+ grains of lead into your target at high velocity and point blank range. The performance isn't really going to vary that much.
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I never claimed that birdshot was a lousy HD load. But, compared to 00 Buck, I find it inferior overall. Just my opinion (which happens to coincide with many others). Also, you are assuming "point blank" ranges. This is an unknown.

Frankly, Im not overly concerned with what others prefer for HD. Im only concerned with what I deem necessary (given my own research, circumstances and ability) to defend my life and the lives of my loved ones. All else is theory and personal preference.

If what I happen to use is considered as being "overprepared"...so be it. Its still better than being underprepared when the s**t hits the fan (and lives are on the line).
 
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There are things like billiard ball effect, and pellet deformation when pellets collide with pellets in front of them, which causes loss of kinetic energy that can decrease penetration.

On the flip side of the coin, the leading pellets can create a "drafting" effect through tissues that can increase penetration slightly.
 
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well them little bugger pellets better be drafting or they would falter far sooner... Once the squishy torso is hit, I rather rely on 9 Lincoln Continentals than 100 toyota prius'...
Brent
 
FYI, folks, when Shawn Dodson talks about anything forearms related, I listen.

I might even take notes.

As for the "best" choice. I use 00 of known pattern.

Sure birdshot will work if close enough.

00 too, only there close enough is more like 25 yards than 25 feet.

Since we cannot predict the distance of our next firefight, IMO best to prepare for the worst case scenario.
 
OK, so how well would "T" shot (.20 caliber) work for home defense?

That's the size of shot used in Hevi Shot's new "Personal Defense" load.

Since I live in an apartment I'm worried about overpenetration, which would be a problem with buckshot (especially 00). Up to now I've loaded my HD shotgun (Mossberg 500) with two rounds of #6s first in the mag followed by 00 (chamber left empty for safety). I've recently switched to the Hevi Shot "Personal Defense" loading for the first couple of rounds out of concerns that the #6 might not do quite enough damage to stop an attacker.

The Personal Defense loads use the same shot as Hevi Shot's "Dead Coyote" load in 12 gauge, which is supposedly hell on coyotes out to fifty yards. I've heard it makes a good HD load as well, but Dead Coyote is also a three-inch magnum load...which makes it overkill, at least on my shoulder.
 
Only a baby in the next room, or an apartment would have me sold on bird shot.

Here's hoping none of us ever need it.
 
bird shot

Well I guess it is time to put a stop to this. To all of those who think bird shot
is not effective on the BG. I am asking for any one of you to step up to the
ten foot line and let me shoot your arm with a 1oz load of #6 from a 12ga.
You can wear a heavy coat if you want to. Point is BG will be without use of
one arm and in serious pain. The threat will be stopped. If you don't agree then step up to the line my friend. Fact is none of you will stand up and let me shoot you with a .25 auto.
 
For apartment dwellers and condo residents worried about over penetration, I think the prudent thing to do would be to place a densely packed book case at the end of all likely avenues of fire (such as ends of hallways). This would help stop anything from going into the next apartment. If the back of said book case had an extra layer or two of plywood or steel, even better.
 
Well I guess it is time to put a stop to this. To all of those who think bird shot
is not effective on the BG. I am asking for any one of you to step up to the
ten foot line and let me shoot your arm with a 1oz load of #6 from a 12ga.
You can wear a heavy coat if you want to. Point is BG will be without use of
one arm and in serious pain. The threat will be stopped. If you don't agree then step up to the line my friend. Fact is none of you will stand up and let me shoot you with a .25 auto.
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If you are willing to bet your life and that of your family's on an arm wound stopping some junkie high on PCP then all I can say is good luck to you. I will stick with buck shot as I know it will go through said arm and into the bad guy's chest.
 
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