A completely REALISTIC tactical scenario
- Thread starter Aqeous
- Start date
It's late, and this brings up a really funny war story, at least for me. In the late 70's, my friend Charles Halliday was training a super heavyweight, number one ranked Olympic boxer named Mike Dixon. Mike was about 6'2" ate donuts all summer, and still looked like a 235 pound cross between a body builder and Arnold S. at his best Mr. Olympia form, totally ripped, with 6 pack. His record was 35 wins, 0 losses, and 5 DQ's. In free boxing, it was not unusual to get DQed for knocking out the home town favorite. In Hayward, MIke knocked the guy out, and got DQed for hitting the guy as he was falling to the ground, knocked out.
Anything with NCAA or Olympics=corrupt...
So, Mike makes the then to be 80 Olympic team, and, the team is going to England to fight. Mike, being a typical knothead heavyweight, doesn't get on the plane, but, ends up quitting, marrying a very rich white girl, working as a bouncer in her home town in Central Kali, and, finally ends up as a prison guard.
Now, I said all this for this story.
Mike's working as a bouncer, and, he has to kick some white red necks out of the bar. Mike keeps his temper, which for him, was an incredible accomplishment, and, the 5 guys leave, still standing, but calling him the n word, and his family etc.
Knowing MIke, that was incredibly difficult for him to contain his both ability, and rage.
Fast forward, 2: 30 AM, after the bar closes. The 5 drunk white guys have mistaken Mike's professional restraint for some sort of weakness. They think that if they catch him all alone, he's going to wilt, turn into a pansy, and beg for mercy.
They confront him outside the bar, and call him out. He doesn't quite react the way they expect, and, they all sort of have one of those epithanies in life where they realize they totally didn't realize the situation, and, they made a huge mistake. Some how Mike didn't act like a cowering
Muhammed Ali, who, by the way, Mike was near as fast, hit harder, but had shorter arms.
The conversation went something like,
"I think it's time we leave."
Mike said something like,
"It's too late for that."
Given the odds, the weapons the guys had, and the confrontation after work, after the guys had come out of the E.R. they were arrested, and prosecuted. This was a GREAT prosecutor, and, felt that it was in his towns' best interest to put gangs of guys that would assault people after work in jail, even if they have to eat their food out of a straw for 6 months, due to their poor choices...
Mike was a great guy, but, even he had his limits. It was good to hear that for once, the law got the right guys for their crimes.
Charles had a similar situation, and, the judge begrudgingly let him go, given the odds. However, it was REAL close to being another Conair scenario: War vet comes home, gets assaulted by a gang of guys, slaughters them, and breaks them into small pieces, and ends up in
prison for A&B, when in fact, the other guys tried to kill him...
PS:
It might have helped that his in laws pretty much owned the town....
Anything with NCAA or Olympics=corrupt...
So, Mike makes the then to be 80 Olympic team, and, the team is going to England to fight. Mike, being a typical knothead heavyweight, doesn't get on the plane, but, ends up quitting, marrying a very rich white girl, working as a bouncer in her home town in Central Kali, and, finally ends up as a prison guard.
Now, I said all this for this story.
Mike's working as a bouncer, and, he has to kick some white red necks out of the bar. Mike keeps his temper, which for him, was an incredible accomplishment, and, the 5 guys leave, still standing, but calling him the n word, and his family etc.
Knowing MIke, that was incredibly difficult for him to contain his both ability, and rage.
Fast forward, 2: 30 AM, after the bar closes. The 5 drunk white guys have mistaken Mike's professional restraint for some sort of weakness. They think that if they catch him all alone, he's going to wilt, turn into a pansy, and beg for mercy.
They confront him outside the bar, and call him out. He doesn't quite react the way they expect, and, they all sort of have one of those epithanies in life where they realize they totally didn't realize the situation, and, they made a huge mistake. Some how Mike didn't act like a cowering
Muhammed Ali, who, by the way, Mike was near as fast, hit harder, but had shorter arms.
The conversation went something like,
"I think it's time we leave."
Mike said something like,
"It's too late for that."
Given the odds, the weapons the guys had, and the confrontation after work, after the guys had come out of the E.R. they were arrested, and prosecuted. This was a GREAT prosecutor, and, felt that it was in his towns' best interest to put gangs of guys that would assault people after work in jail, even if they have to eat their food out of a straw for 6 months, due to their poor choices...
Mike was a great guy, but, even he had his limits. It was good to hear that for once, the law got the right guys for their crimes.
Charles had a similar situation, and, the judge begrudgingly let him go, given the odds. However, it was REAL close to being another Conair scenario: War vet comes home, gets assaulted by a gang of guys, slaughters them, and breaks them into small pieces, and ends up in
prison for A&B, when in fact, the other guys tried to kill him...
PS:
It might have helped that his in laws pretty much owned the town....
David Armstrong
Moderator
Perhaps that is the only option you see, but I see several others. You don't have to run away, walking works just fine.
You don't know that. I've seen plenty of potential fights defused by one guy walking away. And if it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything.
Seems a lot more realistic than standing there waiting to start a gunfight.
Tobi Keith has a song about my response to this. I'm not as good as I once was. Like everybody before me I'm getting old. My body just can't respond physically as I could years ago. I still have knock out power only I might as well hold up a sign that says "here it comes duck". After a few combo's the sign should be changed to "there it goes" as in my KO power. Besides who's to say that this BG isn't some Tapout prodigy. Heck if Elijah Faber stepped out of the car and challenged you.............you wouldn't back down unless you watched him fight.
My story.........I manage a pawn shop an one of our customers was a mild mannered man about 5'9" maybe 180 built soft (as in not muscular). Occasionally he would be a pain in the butt and I often though how much I would love to belt him one. One day detectives come in to place his pawns on police hold (stolen from his dad) and told me the following story. Mild Mannered BG broke lose before officer #1 could finish cuffing both hands. Beat officer #1 pretty good and took his gun (tossed it and ran). BG hid under a house until a K9 officer was deployed. BG fought the K9 officer and 3 police officers with what the detective described as super human strength.
Had I gone by this guys appearance and chosen to defend myself with my arms and legs I would have been in a world of trouble.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Disagree all you want, but you might want to check with an attorney. Even in Castle Doctrine states simple threats do not justify shooting. There is no weapon, there is no obvious disparity, there isn't even much of an intent. You don't get to shoot people for being a jerk.
David Armstrong
"there is no obvious disparity"
We are imagining things differently. I was after all the one standing there.
But I will ask strait out . . . are you saying that if an approaching aggressor speaking violent profanities is steadily making his way towards you, you are not aloud to draw you gun to make him back off before he over takes you. (be it you standing your ground OR you backing off and running?)
(yes any number of things can happen before he overtakes you. You can run, you can say "I'm your b**** son . . . don't hurt me . . . have a puppy." You can stand you ground and say "Army rangers! You walk onto the wrong street!" but BEFORE he actually jumps on you, are we not aloud to draw our guns???)
"there is no obvious disparity"
We are imagining things differently. I was after all the one standing there.
But I will ask strait out . . . are you saying that if an approaching aggressor speaking violent profanities is steadily making his way towards you, you are not aloud to draw you gun to make him back off before he over takes you. (be it you standing your ground OR you backing off and running?)
(yes any number of things can happen before he overtakes you. You can run, you can say "I'm your b**** son . . . don't hurt me . . . have a puppy." You can stand you ground and say "Army rangers! You walk onto the wrong street!" but BEFORE he actually jumps on you, are we not aloud to draw our guns???)
TexasSeaRay
New member
David,
You and I have both worn badges and dealt with this kind of human sewage more times than we probably care to remember.
Did you ever encounter one of these pukes who wasn't armed with some sort of a weapon?
Better than nine out of ten times that I encountered these oxygen thieves, they were armed with not just one weapon, but several.
What's more, after I had them on the ground and secured and was calling in, I'd find out that the guy had priors--lots of them, and was known to local LE as someone in dire need of being measured for a casket.
These same guys always liked to fight and "resist" with us--imagine what they'd do with an ordinary citizen who they thought was both unarmed and unwilling/unable to defend themselves.
I'd have zero problems with the original poster in question drawing down on this guy PROVIDED he was also hitting the 9-1-1 speed dial on his cell phone. And if you're goin to walk in a bad or questionable neighborhood, you damn well better be carrying a cell phone in addition to a weapon.
However, the proverbial Catch-22 is that with scumbags like this, they dare cops and ordinary citizens alike to shoot them, and will often escalate the situation just to call someone's bluff.
Again, I advocate swallowing your ego for as long as you safely can. But if/when the situation denigrates further, well, there is a reason the majority of states passed CCW laws. . . . and being in absolute fear for your well-being and life is at the top of the list.
Jeff
One, I thought she was beautiful, and, Mike was a great guy. Two, I thought it might have been relevant in the local police, and or DA's decision on a course of action. It was a small town, also, it was in an area where few blacks live, and, the cops, and system showed what appears to be absolutely no racism. Kudos to them.
Three: your financial ability to buy the best lawyers in town
ARE a consideration in small town DA's choices.
Fourth: His in-laws owned most of the town...
Aqueous:
I just had a night similar to that. First kid in school walks up behind me, slams his fist into his palm, right behind my
neck, so close I could feel the wind, and walks back to his seat rapping,
"I knocked the O.G. out!!!"
Next was an all-star game between East Oakland and another similar area. One point game, partners didn't call stuff tight enough, so, I ended up with double fouls, double technicals, emptied benches, and police on the floor. To quote the other ref,
"I know how you guys can get down, and, we're shutting it down for anything from here out."
Pepper spray, a stun gun, and a .357 would be my choices for this situation, or, maybe a 45 Super snubbie, but, that's a bit heavy, for running up and down a basketball floor...
For your situation, pepper spray would have been perfect, followed by a stun gun, and, backed by your CCW...
Welcome to my world...
The guy made a threat........no longer a jerk but an assaulting jerk. The guy is in the process of turning the threat (assault) into a battery.......not just using the public sidewalk. Unless he is directly from the cast of The Wizard of Oz or void of arms he is capable of causing you great bodily harm or death.
I will continue to disagree. Also the Castle Doctrine simply removes then need to retreat. All other criteria for justification are the same.
You want to risk fist fighting with a 20 year old buck go right ahead. Your age and declining physical ability or perhaps a lucky punch by the thug and you are at their mercy. I expected more from someone so tactically savvy. Heck maybe you have a giant S under your suit. I don't though. I certainly don't want my firearm getting into the hands of someone who just beat the crapola out of me.
My fighting days are over. That doesn't mean I can't fight. I'm just realistic in my understanding that I'm on the other side of life's ladder.
I will make every attempt to retreat, diffuse, and avoid the situation. Once I cannot do one of the above I will present my weapon in order to prevent a beating. Once my weapon is exposed to the BG if he continues the attack it can be argued legally that he risked death or great bodily injury and must have been willing to give such.
TexasSeaRay +1 
Socrates: "For your situation, pepper spray would have been perfect, followed by a stun gun, and, backed by your CCW..."
I think I am going to pick up some really good pepper spray. That does actually seem like a good idea. I think it might be a bit easier to justify spraying someone then shooting them in the eyes of the law. (and if not the consequences are far less) And a real + is that if he keeps on maintaining significant violent aggression after he pumped full of a face of hot stuff that will probably help sway a case in favor of the good guy should you have to end up shooting him to. (sometimes the spray don't work . . .)
The reason why I haven't picked some up so far is simple . . . you can get yourself. It may sound a little funny, but I am a wimp when it comes to spicy food (I've got food allergies something fierce too
) I know pepper spray will blind me . . . and I can only imagine what would happen if I started falling into anaphylactic shock to boot because some backwash got into my eyes on a windy day.
Any suggestions on the do's and don't's of pepper spray?
P.S. Socrates: I have been noticing that you spelling my name differently in your posts Aqueous instead of Aqeous are you trying to tell me something
. . . like maybe I'm a bad speller . . . 
Socrates: "For your situation, pepper spray would have been perfect, followed by a stun gun, and, backed by your CCW..."
I think I am going to pick up some really good pepper spray. That does actually seem like a good idea. I think it might be a bit easier to justify spraying someone then shooting them in the eyes of the law. (and if not the consequences are far less) And a real + is that if he keeps on maintaining significant violent aggression after he pumped full of a face of hot stuff that will probably help sway a case in favor of the good guy should you have to end up shooting him to. (sometimes the spray don't work . . .)
The reason why I haven't picked some up so far is simple . . . you can get yourself. It may sound a little funny, but I am a wimp when it comes to spicy food (I've got food allergies something fierce too
) I know pepper spray will blind me . . . and I can only imagine what would happen if I started falling into anaphylactic shock to boot because some backwash got into my eyes on a windy day. Any suggestions on the do's and don't's of pepper spray?
P.S. Socrates: I have been noticing that you spelling my name differently in your posts Aqueous instead of Aqeous are you trying to tell me something
. . . like maybe I'm a bad speller . . . Spade Cooley
Moderator
You could keep your gun in the holster ala Hopalong Cassady and beat the &%$# out of him.
The posture you present to him is most important. If you act freightened this will feed his ego. If you act like you can't wait to shoot him and will enjoy it, this will make him flee in terror which will make him look stupid in the eyes of his girlfriend.
It is highly unlikely that he is going for a weapon because a gun would trump most of them. If he goes for a gun it is time to take cover and start the gun play.
In the end it is best just to let them move on and ignore it. He will be spending a miserable life with that kind of attitude.
The posture you present to him is most important. If you act freightened this will feed his ego. If you act like you can't wait to shoot him and will enjoy it, this will make him flee in terror which will make him look stupid in the eyes of his girlfriend.
It is highly unlikely that he is going for a weapon because a gun would trump most of them. If he goes for a gun it is time to take cover and start the gun play.
In the end it is best just to let them move on and ignore it. He will be spending a miserable life with that kind of attitude.
David Armstrong
Moderator
But you are the one who has to convince a jury that your actions were reasonable. FWIW, most courts have consistently rejected the concept of disparity of force for a one on one encounter barring some very unusual circumstances.
As a general rule, you don't get to use your gun to threaten someone with deadly force when it is not a deadly force situation.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Found a lot that carried, found a lot that didn't. But more to the point you don't get to act based on "I thought he probably would have a weapon."
Exactly. That is why I tend to suggest waiting. At the time, the OP has numerous options available to him. Once he draws and threatens, he has narrowed that range of options down significantly.
No disagreement. But I think that is very different than standing there waiting for the BG to get closer and closer.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Prove it. The guy is still just mouthing away. No particularly threatening gestures, no weapons, etc. Girlfriend in court: "Your Honor, I don't know why that horrible man shot my boyfriend. He had just gotten out of the car and was going over to apologize for being rude -OR- He had just gotten out of the car to find out why that horrible man kept staring at us and making obscene gestures." etc.
Using that criteria you need to start shooting everyone who walks by you and mutters anything bad about you.
Exactly. And simple threats (which is all we have here) do not justify lethal force.
No, I don't. That is why I turn around and go the other direction. If he chases me and escalates the situation then maybe we will reach the point that lethal force is jsutified and needed.
Savvy to me indicates trying to avoid a fight when possible.
Uh, no, there is no legal doctrine that supports that conclusion.
I also get a bit concerned about this issue. One of the companies has a combined pepper/mace/dye gel.http://www.defensedevices.com/mace-gel-pepper-spray.html
This was recommended by a guy at the gunstore. Said he's used it once on a guy with a knife on Bart, and, his mom on a purse snatcher. Worked great both times, and, did not get anyone else. Haven't shot the stuff myself, but, as with CCW, don't really expect to every have to use it.
Use it for jogging, for dogs or maybe fierce cats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4i3jKwpp8k&feature=related
I should use it. I'm really more concerned with a dog, or wild basketball player late at night then anything else.
YOu might think about a bear quality spray, for walking with a dog...
I was thinking about taking my cat for a walk, and, pepper spray would be with me, and probably a steel baton. Come to think of it, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea for such walks as well...http://www.tbotech.com/telescopicbaton.htm
I've got one sort of like it from Martial arts, and it's probably illegal.
http://www.tbotech.com/dogchaser.htm
http://www.tbotech.com/bearspray.htm
Given the situation described, a blast of this stuff would probably do the trick, and, if the guy runs to his car, and you see a gun, you can hit him from distance with it.
littlelikesand
Inactive
Your most important weapon
In this day and age your first line of defense is speed dial 911 on your cell phone. Get the operator on the line and barring a bad connection, service failure or a marginal operator start getting the situation recorded. If you don`t have a cell phone by virtue of too poor or your technically challenged, then your taking a serious chance just going to the corner market (if they have them anymore). Most have cameras in case of an accident or just to get a plate number.
I stopped at a circle K out here in AZ. A scruffy woman walked up to me and said her car was broke so she and her really scruffy boyfriend needed a ride just down the road. As she talked, her partner was circling around my truck behind me. I grabbed my phone and called 911 and made it clear that I was calling 911. I had my concealed carry .44 on my belt and my hand on it as I slowly turned to keep an eye on both of them. They listened to me for a few seconds, jumped in the BROKE car and took off. I had the plate number and announced it to the operator. I received a call from the Sheriff and hour later. They had been stopped and detained on outstandings. I didn`t follow up, but I didn`t have to shoot or bruise myself pounding on anyone.
John "little like sand"
In this day and age your first line of defense is speed dial 911 on your cell phone. Get the operator on the line and barring a bad connection, service failure or a marginal operator start getting the situation recorded. If you don`t have a cell phone by virtue of too poor or your technically challenged, then your taking a serious chance just going to the corner market (if they have them anymore). Most have cameras in case of an accident or just to get a plate number.
I stopped at a circle K out here in AZ. A scruffy woman walked up to me and said her car was broke so she and her really scruffy boyfriend needed a ride just down the road. As she talked, her partner was circling around my truck behind me. I grabbed my phone and called 911 and made it clear that I was calling 911. I had my concealed carry .44 on my belt and my hand on it as I slowly turned to keep an eye on both of them. They listened to me for a few seconds, jumped in the BROKE car and took off. I had the plate number and announced it to the operator. I received a call from the Sheriff and hour later. They had been stopped and detained on outstandings. I didn`t follow up, but I didn`t have to shoot or bruise myself pounding on anyone.
John "little like sand"
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spacemanspiff
New member
A very similar situation is already under discussion here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296905
My brain is tired at the moment, but if memory serves correctly, this current thread has more responses to NOT use deadly force, and in the above linked thread, there are more response in favor of using deadly force.
I'll check back on it later, maybe tomorrow and see if thats right, if so, what are the differences?
My brain is tired at the moment, but if memory serves correctly, this current thread has more responses to NOT use deadly force, and in the above linked thread, there are more response in favor of using deadly force.
I'll check back on it later, maybe tomorrow and see if thats right, if so, what are the differences?