A completely REALISTIC tactical scenario
- Thread starter Aqeous
- Start date
Rich Miranda
New member
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd bother trying to conceal pepper spray. I have no idea of what the law here in Texas is.
Where I live you have the right to use a firearm to defend yourself ONLY if you honestly belive that your life or that of a third party is in jepordy. Even a smqack upside the head doesn't justify the used of deadly force. It is a last resort do or die situation. I would rather get a broken nose than kill someone. Pull a weapon though, tell Jesus I said hello.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Yep. When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone.
Can O Worms indeed! 
Please be sure to check your State Statutes regarding self-defense and duty to retreat before reading any of my rambles
In this case, the only variables I could fathom would be if the assailant was within a few feet of his door and verbally indicated an intention to retrieve a firearm or other deadly weapon, then turned and went for it. Your case has a better chance if you acted with deadly force to terminate his perceived immediate threat. As in, "If I didn't fire, he would have got to his (Insert deadly weapon).
There is some understanding if you can properly... I mean very properly articulate your fear of death or great bodily harm. If he was a chasing distance away (4 or 5 yards) from you and/or the car, it's probably not going to put you in immediate harm, but enough to at least draw to low-ready or up on target in anticipation, depending on your level of fear.
I wouldn't give chase to position for a better point blank shot, but if you can run towards him, you could also likely run for cover/conclmnt. Showing at least some attempt to get away from the aggressor. Or just draw and stand your ground (depending on your state).
I personally find it bothersome that states are inconsistent with allowing their citizens to stand their ground. I'd hate to go on vacation to find myself in a situation where I'm trying to remember others' SD laws.
Also, notify PD ASAP, since in a few minutes, you might walk into some deputies mentioning something about a Sunday School teacher and his bible study girlfriend stopping to ask directions for the local Hebrew School when this crazy man with a puppy and a .45 tried to kill them.
That's why I just use..."High Karate!"
Please be sure to check your State Statutes regarding self-defense and duty to retreat before reading any of my rambles
In this case, the only variables I could fathom would be if the assailant was within a few feet of his door and verbally indicated an intention to retrieve a firearm or other deadly weapon, then turned and went for it. Your case has a better chance if you acted with deadly force to terminate his perceived immediate threat. As in, "If I didn't fire, he would have got to his (Insert deadly weapon).
There is some understanding if you can properly... I mean very properly articulate your fear of death or great bodily harm. If he was a chasing distance away (4 or 5 yards) from you and/or the car, it's probably not going to put you in immediate harm, but enough to at least draw to low-ready or up on target in anticipation, depending on your level of fear.
I wouldn't give chase to position for a better point blank shot, but if you can run towards him, you could also likely run for cover/conclmnt. Showing at least some attempt to get away from the aggressor. Or just draw and stand your ground (depending on your state).
I personally find it bothersome that states are inconsistent with allowing their citizens to stand their ground. I'd hate to go on vacation to find myself in a situation where I'm trying to remember others' SD laws.
Also, notify PD ASAP, since in a few minutes, you might walk into some deputies mentioning something about a Sunday School teacher and his bible study girlfriend stopping to ask directions for the local Hebrew School when this crazy man with a puppy and a .45 tried to kill them.
That's why I just use..."High Karate!"
+1 Mr. Armstrong.
As the original post was written it was not IMHO and knowledge of local laws, a "shooting situation". It could become one, depending on what transpires next. If this happened to me I would attempt to not make it become a "shooting situation".
Eating a little crow is cheaper than a civil or criminal trial.
Biker
You can only shoot to stop an immediate threat.
1.) Lets say he instantly turns and runs back to the car as fast as he can? I don't think thatS justification to shoot in the eyes of the law.
Right, you'll be up for assault or attempted murder or murder.
depend on whether or not there was ACTUALLY a gun in the vehicle that he was going for.
Nope, you had no reason to believe there was a gun in the car. Your free life is history in this case.
2.) Your intuition says that this big mindless peace of meat is going for something. That he's not running . . . What do you do . . . your life is now on the line. You can't run, he's the one thats going to shoot you in the back as you flee.
Again, wrong. If he's moving away from you and has shown no weapon, there IS NO THREAT.
YOU chase HIM back to his car. If he doesn't instantly jump back in, if he REACHES for anything, you pump him up with several rounds of .45 ACP HST Hollow points.
Partially right.
Let's look at it this way. You've all watched cops drawn down on some perp with a gun hanging at his side. You've all heard "drop the gun" countless times. Why don't the cops just blow the guy away? Because they have the drop on him. If he raises the gun one inch, they got him cold and he's dead meat.
Get the drop on him.
Assume a defensive posture with your hand on your weapon, but not drawn. Raise a hand and command "STAY BACK, STOP NOW!"
If he doesn't:
Draw your weapon, take one step back, and point it at his heart. Give a command "STAY BACK, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT YOU."
If he doesn't:
When he's about 10 feet away, take him out.
If he's down but still menacing you, finish the job. Shoot until the threat is negated.
BTW, this may all happen in the space of 10 seconds.
He had opportunity, ability, and intent.
If he steps back at any point and goes back to his vehicle, track on him. Even if he tries to bring out a gun, you still have the drop on him. If he drives off, stay where you are, get the license number and call the LEOs.
I watched my CWP instructor play out almost this exact scenario in class. When he pointed his weapon at the wall and issued the commands, I almost wet my pants. You HAVE to make the perp believe you WILL shoot him.
1.) Lets say he instantly turns and runs back to the car as fast as he can? I don't think thatS justification to shoot in the eyes of the law.
Right, you'll be up for assault or attempted murder or murder.
depend on whether or not there was ACTUALLY a gun in the vehicle that he was going for.
Nope, you had no reason to believe there was a gun in the car. Your free life is history in this case.
2.) Your intuition says that this big mindless peace of meat is going for something. That he's not running . . . What do you do . . . your life is now on the line. You can't run, he's the one thats going to shoot you in the back as you flee.
Again, wrong. If he's moving away from you and has shown no weapon, there IS NO THREAT.
YOU chase HIM back to his car. If he doesn't instantly jump back in, if he REACHES for anything, you pump him up with several rounds of .45 ACP HST Hollow points.
Partially right.
Let's look at it this way. You've all watched cops drawn down on some perp with a gun hanging at his side. You've all heard "drop the gun" countless times. Why don't the cops just blow the guy away? Because they have the drop on him. If he raises the gun one inch, they got him cold and he's dead meat.
Get the drop on him.
Assume a defensive posture with your hand on your weapon, but not drawn. Raise a hand and command "STAY BACK, STOP NOW!"
If he doesn't:
Draw your weapon, take one step back, and point it at his heart. Give a command "STAY BACK, STOP OR I'LL SHOOT YOU."
If he doesn't:
When he's about 10 feet away, take him out.
If he's down but still menacing you, finish the job. Shoot until the threat is negated.
BTW, this may all happen in the space of 10 seconds.
He had opportunity, ability, and intent.
If he steps back at any point and goes back to his vehicle, track on him. Even if he tries to bring out a gun, you still have the drop on him. If he drives off, stay where you are, get the license number and call the LEOs.
I watched my CWP instructor play out almost this exact scenario in class. When he pointed his weapon at the wall and issued the commands, I almost wet my pants. You HAVE to make the perp believe you WILL shoot him.
spacemanspiff
New member
In my state, that isnt a lawful option. Your scenario has an unarmed aggressive butthead that wants to throw down. You can run. You can de-escalate the situation by apologizing, saying you are his beeyotch, you would perform many favors for him if he would just leave you alone.
Carrying a gun means you have to have the cooler head. It is for the defense of life, and a knuckledragging meathead may not exactly pose a deadly threat.
I watched a situation pan out similar to your hypothetical, just last Friday night. I was outside the bar, and refused one drunk guy, him and his less-intoxicated friend walked away. Another pair of individuals stopped the drunk guy, talked back and forth, trying to be all tough. The two I refused tried to walk away, went across the street, the other two followed and kept bothering them. Calling the skinny drunk guy out to fight, they wind up doing all the chest thumping, taking off their shirts, bumping into each other, all that good stuff. The skinny drunk guy finally had enough, and there was a throwdown. I couldnt tell who struck who first, but the skinny drunks friend had no part of it, his friend looked like he was going to be doubleteamed, but he was tougher than he looked, certainly more than the other guys figured him to be. Though it was two on one, the skinny drunk guy got the upper hand, connected on a good hit to the aggressors head, he goes down, his buddy flees. The skinny drunk then started stomping the guy on the ground, which is when we intervened, against the admonishment of a supervisor, we didnt like having to watch any of it, but we certainly werent going to just watch someone getting curbstomped.
The guy on the ground was knocked out, the skinny drunk went his way, 911 dispatch advised us not to detain, they sent an officer out, nothing came of it, or they would have returned for our statement and the video a passerby took of the entire incident.
Had this happened outside the bar I used to work at, we would have been involved and prevented it, the aggressor would have gotten pepper sprayed and put in cuffs to wait for police.
"In my state, that isnt a lawful option. Your scenario has an unarmed aggressive butthead that wants to throw down."
In SC, a gun can NOT be used to defend against a "simple assault". HOWEVER, disparity of sizes (a 6'5", 295 pound monster going against a 150 pound octogenarian), or a disparity of numbers (a biker gang against a sole jogger) makes a difference. If you feel you're in "imminent danger of grave physical harm"...
Also, the CWP carrier must be IN NO WAY at fault for the ocurrence of the incident in which he used his gun. In other words, if you call that 6'5", 296 pound guy someone a SOB and he begins punching you relentlessly, and you pull your gun and shoot him, it's your butt all the way.
In SC, a gun can NOT be used to defend against a "simple assault". HOWEVER, disparity of sizes (a 6'5", 295 pound monster going against a 150 pound octogenarian), or a disparity of numbers (a biker gang against a sole jogger) makes a difference. If you feel you're in "imminent danger of grave physical harm"...
Also, the CWP carrier must be IN NO WAY at fault for the ocurrence of the incident in which he used his gun. In other words, if you call that 6'5", 296 pound guy someone a SOB and he begins punching you relentlessly, and you pull your gun and shoot him, it's your butt all the way.
Really? If I have a weapon in my hand and have given appropriate warnings to the BG, do you REALLY think I'll let him get close enough to strike me?
Its great to imagine what you THINK you would do, but until youre in the situation you'll never know.
Ive been there. it took 5 yrs to clear the lawsuits. no criminal charges. my wife and i werent injured. BG survived.
BG was shot to death holding up a liquor store some years later. he shot and killed an innocent before the owner nailed him.
thats the bottom line. I plan to walk away, uninjured.
Ill take my chances with the legal system.
I would turn around and leave. If he tries to pursue me I run. If he is gaining on me or I'm getting fatigued I draw and confront while retreating. If he continues to move in on me I now have no choice but to fire.
If he runs back to his car at the sight of my gun I continue to get out of dodge while looking for cover or ducking out behind a home or business. At the site of a firearm I open fire while giving as small a target as possible. Likely prone if no cover is available.
In my neck of the woods knocking on someones door with a gun in your hand is a bad idea so make sure your gun is not exposed if you beat on someones door.
If he runs back to his car at the sight of my gun I continue to get out of dodge while looking for cover or ducking out behind a home or business. At the site of a firearm I open fire while giving as small a target as possible. Likely prone if no cover is available.
In my neck of the woods knocking on someones door with a gun in your hand is a bad idea so make sure your gun is not exposed if you beat on someones door.
Just got back from work . . . wow . . .
Can of worms is right . . . where to begin?
First off Keltyke---thats actually some A+ advise. Thanks for your post.
Secondly, to be honest, I think my original post was a little bit vague. I was in a good mood this morning and I kind of wrote the post with a certain amount candor that I don't usually post with . . . I guess lesson learned . . .
I didn't actually mean "Chase after him" as in running after him as he fled. That would make me the crazy guy with a .45. In the scenario as I visualized it, the car would be only a few paces away, far to close to "chase" him to. I was visualizing that the vehicle would have stopped around the same distance as I heard him make his comment.
What is interesting though is how many different interpretations and opinions a group of people can derive from words that are spoken on the fly, or are just not specific enough to truly convey the whole idea.
THAT is an important lesson for all of us. Because from the cop that questions you to the jury that may be deciding your fate, little details will either doom you or set you free . . . I know I learned something here and it doesn't have to do with CCW it has more to do with what comes out of your mouth AFTER something actually happens.
Also: (In hind sight its actually kind of funny that this was taken so literally) I didn't actually MEAN pump him full of lead in the literal sense people
Double or triple tap to me is "being pumped full of .45 HST" But again lesson learned . . . be specific.
Thanks for all of your posts . . . there was some real good advise.
Did I miss anything?
Can of worms is right . . . where to begin?
First off Keltyke---thats actually some A+ advise. Thanks for your post.
Secondly, to be honest, I think my original post was a little bit vague. I was in a good mood this morning and I kind of wrote the post with a certain amount candor that I don't usually post with . . . I guess lesson learned . . .
I didn't actually mean "Chase after him" as in running after him as he fled. That would make me the crazy guy with a .45
. In the scenario as I visualized it, the car would be only a few paces away, far to close to "chase" him to. I was visualizing that the vehicle would have stopped around the same distance as I heard him make his comment. What is interesting though is how many different interpretations and opinions a group of people can derive from words that are spoken on the fly, or are just not specific enough to truly convey the whole idea.
THAT is an important lesson for all of us. Because from the cop that questions you to the jury that may be deciding your fate, little details will either doom you or set you free . . . I know I learned something here and it doesn't have to do with CCW it has more to do with what comes out of your mouth AFTER something actually happens.
Also: (In hind sight its actually kind of funny that this was taken so literally) I didn't actually MEAN pump him full of lead in the literal sense people
Double or triple tap to me is "being pumped full of .45 HST" But again lesson learned . . . be specific. Thanks for all of your posts . . . there was some real good advise.
Did I miss anything?
David Armstrong:
"When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone."
Respectfully, when in a real life CCW event will you have time to do ALL of that? If there was that amount of time I wouldn't be drawing my gun I would just be strolling down the road.
Kragax:
"tell Jesus I said hello."
Not sure what that is pertaining to
but I am pretty sure that Jesus + Guns don't mix.
"When the car stops immediately turn around and start back the way you came. Another option, depending on the neighborhood, is to walk up to the nearest front door and ring and start knocking. If he pursues it gives you a much better defense should there be a problem, might give you a witness, and so on. Definitely not a shooting situation so leave your gun alone."
Respectfully, when in a real life CCW event will you have time to do ALL of that? If there was that amount of time I wouldn't be drawing my gun I would just be strolling down the road.
Kragax:
"tell Jesus I said hello."
Not sure what that is pertaining to
but I am pretty sure that Jesus + Guns don't mix.Since I am 63, retired, a cardiac patient, with various and sundry other physical limitations:
One knuckle dragging neanderthal who wants to make a federal case about my attested ogling of his female probably doesn't have a leg to stand on anyway, because they usually have Rosy O'Donnell's baby sister with them here in my area, . . . and I ain't interested.
If he presses the issue, . . . I will back away, apologizing, and trying to do my "I'm scared of you" impression as best I can.
BUT, . . . when he gets up to about 15 or so feet, . . . I will have a hand on the butt of my 1911, . . . and any closer, . . . he'll see what the inside of the barrel looks like, . . . and I'll take my chances with the legal ramifications.
If he runs, . . . I'm on my cell, . . . 911, . . . calling it in. If he comes out with a firearm or any serious weapon, . . . I'll be calling a lawyer next.
May God bless,
Dwight
PS: This is the exact type of scenario that makes me take my walks in the woods, . . . or down a township road that has no houses at all, . . . out in the boonies where most knuckle draggers can't even find.
One knuckle dragging neanderthal who wants to make a federal case about my attested ogling of his female probably doesn't have a leg to stand on anyway, because they usually have Rosy O'Donnell's baby sister with them here in my area, . . . and I ain't interested.
If he presses the issue, . . . I will back away, apologizing, and trying to do my "I'm scared of you" impression as best I can.
BUT, . . . when he gets up to about 15 or so feet, . . . I will have a hand on the butt of my 1911, . . . and any closer, . . . he'll see what the inside of the barrel looks like, . . . and I'll take my chances with the legal ramifications.
If he runs, . . . I'm on my cell, . . . 911, . . . calling it in. If he comes out with a firearm or any serious weapon, . . . I'll be calling a lawyer next.
May God bless,
Dwight
PS: This is the exact type of scenario that makes me take my walks in the woods, . . . or down a township road that has no houses at all, . . . out in the boonies where most knuckle draggers can't even find.
TexasSeaRay
New member
No it doesn't.
Hypothetical situations have more "ifs" in them than Rosie O'Donnel has fleas.
First thing is do not do anything to draw unwanted or unfavorable attention to yourself. All this crap about "being aware of your environment" needs to come with a disclaimer about HOW to be aware of your environment without tipping every neanderthal playground/prison-yard bully off that you're watching them.
We were taught in our military unit to never make direct eye contact with folks when surveying/reconning. Ever "felt" eyes upon you? Bad guys sure as hell do. Bad guys are predators and as such, are much more acutely aware of their surroundings than most others--especially potential prey.
Learn to use your peripheral vision--and not just for possible trouble, but also for possible help, concealment and evasion.
And finally, even if you have the upper hand (ie, a weapon or specialized training/skills), always try to give the idiot trouble-maker a way out in which he can save face. It's called swallowing your ego, but it beats swallowing a stiff sentence from an unsympathetic judge or jury.
Example--
I had a dockworker in Houston get mouthy with me in front of his beer-bellied buddies one day. I was about six months out of the service and looking up a friend from basic training days down on the docks.
Tough guy makes some remark and I ignore him. But some people just gotta push it and don't know when or with who to quit.
Big guy runs up behind me and shoves me from behind. I get up and face him, ready to eat him alive. I see a typical anchor and USN tattoo on the guy's forearm. "You were in the Navy?" I ask him. He nods while calling me a few unflattering names, while turning around and grinning at his buddies.
"So was I," I tell him, rolling up my sleeve and showing him MY tattoo. "Just got out a few months ago."
Tough guy sees my tattoo and instantly recognizes it. His face loses a lot of color and his entire demeanor changes. This was back in the 70's before Hollywood and cable television and their BS myths. The guy takes a step back. "Jesus, man," he starts off. "Sorry, man. I don't want any trouble."
"So you know what's about to happen, don't you?" I tell him.
The guy is just standing there, not saying anything in spite of his butt buddies yelling at him to kick my ass. "Tell you what," I tell him. "Turn around and head right back to your buddies--but go ahead and call me an ******* and whatever else you want. But you better keep walking away while you do it. This way, I won't go to jail and you won't go to the hospital. Deal?"
The guy took the deal and called me a few names while trying to strut back to his buddies, but he just didn't have it in him. He went his way, I went mine. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got arrested.
I also had my Model 66 tucked in my waistband. In Texas, we have disparity of force. Four of them against one of me would've been more than enough justification to use whatever force necessary.
But was it necessary?
Not in this case, it wasn't.
Always be prepared to swallow your ego and do whatever, say whatever to get out of such situations.
Because speaking from experience, once you pull the trigger, you can never call the bullet back. Never forget that.
All so many of these hypothetical situations/scenarios really accomplish is for some folks to bolster up their mindset that shooting is always Option Number One.
And that is rarely the case.
Jeff
David Armstrong
Moderator
Sorry, I think you get to spend a few years in the slammer with Bubba. Unless I missed something, the BG is in public, on a public walkway, where there is no law prohibiting his presence. Basically all you have is a guy with a big mouth. No weapons, no force actually used, the guy hasn't even touched you, just a lot of jaw-jacking. Sorry, but unless there is something else here you don't get to kill the guy. Being rude and obnoxious is not a capital offense.