Wildalaska
Moderator
I prefer "The irony of the Information Age is to allow idiots to be experts"
WildthatsnotdirectedtoanyoneAlaska TM
A Challenge to the 870 Express Bashers....
- Thread starter Dave McC
- Start date
I prefer "The irony of the Information Age is to allow idiots to be experts"
WildthatsnotdirectedtoanyoneAlaska TM
Maromero, no takers. And I do not expect any. I made the offer more to show how rare lemon 870s are than to cop some cheap shotguns. But , one can hope, heh,heh...
FEG, I get to unglitch a fair amount of other people's shotguns at the range. Mostly divers autos that are under or over lubed and undercleaned. Hardly ever an 870, though, of any model.
IIRC, 4 or 5 of that sample were brand new, fired first that day.
20 is a small sample, but if all 20 work as expected, a reasonable person may deduce that the lemon ratio is under 5%.
Re used WMs, I prefer them. Great value and since it takes decades of high volume shooting to wear one out,little risk comes with the purchase of one.
Less than a decade ago and chronicled in the archives is my acquiring a much used 870 TB trap gun and putting about 20K rounds through it before selling it to a friend. Other than a couple new firing pin springs, all that happened to the TB was some small increases in the wear marks. Only Heaven knows how many rounds that thing has fired.
I'd like it back, but such is not to be....
Back to Expresses....
Certainly the sheer number of 870s means some had left Ilion without all issues properly handled. But,the number seems to be grossly over reported.
And I'd like to see just how many there are. None, so far.
FEG, I get to unglitch a fair amount of other people's shotguns at the range. Mostly divers autos that are under or over lubed and undercleaned. Hardly ever an 870, though, of any model.
IIRC, 4 or 5 of that sample were brand new, fired first that day.
20 is a small sample, but if all 20 work as expected, a reasonable person may deduce that the lemon ratio is under 5%.
Re used WMs, I prefer them. Great value and since it takes decades of high volume shooting to wear one out,little risk comes with the purchase of one.
Less than a decade ago and chronicled in the archives is my acquiring a much used 870 TB trap gun and putting about 20K rounds through it before selling it to a friend. Other than a couple new firing pin springs, all that happened to the TB was some small increases in the wear marks. Only Heaven knows how many rounds that thing has fired.
I'd like it back, but such is not to be....
Back to Expresses....
Certainly the sheer number of 870s means some had left Ilion without all issues properly handled. But,the number seems to be grossly over reported.
And I'd like to see just how many there are. None, so far.
Haven't you heard....The guys at the Remington service centers are like Maytag repair men, they sit around with nothing to do all day.
You never hear of anyone complaining about their 870 that was made more than 10 years ago. I wonder why.
Some of the newer Remington 870 Express have problems with shells sticking in the chamber and most need more than just a good chamber cleaning & polish. The 870 Tactical Express with the gray powder coat finish all have a problem with the coating coming off in places.
Overall the 870 Express is a pretty good budget made shotgun. If I wanted one I would buy a used one made more than 10 years ago. One made more than 20 years ago would be even better. Hang on to those older 870s because they don't make them like they use to.
GC
You never hear of anyone complaining about their 870 that was made more than 10 years ago. I wonder why.
Some of the newer Remington 870 Express have problems with shells sticking in the chamber and most need more than just a good chamber cleaning & polish. The 870 Tactical Express with the gray powder coat finish all have a problem with the coating coming off in places.
Overall the 870 Express is a pretty good budget made shotgun. If I wanted one I would buy a used one made more than 10 years ago. One made more than 20 years ago would be even better. Hang on to those older 870s because they don't make them like they use to.
GC
Bamashooter
New member
i have an 870 that i purchased new in 98 a express super mag that shoots 3 1/2 in shells. me and my 11yr. old son take it to turkey shoots every year and he has never had a problem ejecting a spent shell. by the way, with a tru-glo super full choke it will put meat in the deep freeze almost every time.
Head-Space
Moderator
Straw Man argument is when you set up a premise that you can easily shoot down. The metaphor refers to setting up a "scarecrow" or similar "dummy" and then knocking it down.
So that's not what's going on here. The guy is saying he's shot Rem. 870's and they function. That's not a straw man argument. If he was saying, "You can't hit anything with this gun." and then hitting targets with it, that's a "straw man argument."
Be that as it may --
Seems like a fair number of egos are wrapped up in going online and deriding firearms as being "junk." I don't like Glocks, but they're not junk. I just don't like them.
Trap grade Rem. 870's are winning matches these days. I have an 870 Wingmaster, nicer than an Express. I have a Rem. 700 PSS. It drives tacks.
Jennings, Bryco are junk. HiPoint is mud fence ugly and a poor design, but I'm not sure if they're "junk" or not. I have no basis for an opinion. I've never used one.
Where's the whipping the dead horse gif?
So that's not what's going on here. The guy is saying he's shot Rem. 870's and they function. That's not a straw man argument. If he was saying, "You can't hit anything with this gun." and then hitting targets with it, that's a "straw man argument."
Be that as it may --
Seems like a fair number of egos are wrapped up in going online and deriding firearms as being "junk." I don't like Glocks, but they're not junk. I just don't like them.
Trap grade Rem. 870's are winning matches these days. I have an 870 Wingmaster, nicer than an Express. I have a Rem. 700 PSS. It drives tacks.
Jennings, Bryco are junk. HiPoint is mud fence ugly and a poor design, but I'm not sure if they're "junk" or not. I have no basis for an opinion. I've never used one.
Where's the whipping the dead horse gif?
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If not a straw man, there are certainly other logical fallacies in this argument. Appeal to probability (if a percentage are defective, i would have had to see one) and argument from ignorance (since I don't see defective 870s, there aren't any) are two issues I notice.
Do we really think that on a forum with 7,000 active members (active members in the shotgun area less than that, people who have read this thread even less than that) you are really getting a good sample of 870 owners? Even if there were people who saw your offer, how many do you think are anywhere near your location in order to make travelling there feasible or worth the trip?
I agree that the internet magnifies bad experiences, but simply dismissing all of them all as user error is foolish.
Another part of the argument is "it's not Remington, it's the distributors and retailers." At least in my line of work, that is still Remington's problem.
Do we really think that on a forum with 7,000 active members (active members in the shotgun area less than that, people who have read this thread even less than that) you are really getting a good sample of 870 owners? Even if there were people who saw your offer, how many do you think are anywhere near your location in order to make travelling there feasible or worth the trip?
I agree that the internet magnifies bad experiences, but simply dismissing all of them all as user error is foolish.
Another part of the argument is "it's not Remington, it's the distributors and retailers." At least in my line of work, that is still Remington's problem.
We're not all saying that the 870 is junk. My brother has one that he bought in the early 90s that is fantastic. Of course back then it was more like a Wingmaster with a dull finish than the way they are making them today.
What some of us ARE saying is that there is a fair number of people who are having issues with new 870 expresses. It may very well be that we are shooting cheap ammo through the gun (although my Benelli chews up and spits out the cheap ammo just fine).
But come on...just admit it...please...870 expresses are not as good out of the box as they used to be.
What some of us ARE saying is that there is a fair number of people who are having issues with new 870 expresses. It may very well be that we are shooting cheap ammo through the gun (although my Benelli chews up and spits out the cheap ammo just fine).
But come on...just admit it...please...870 expresses are not as good out of the box as they used to be.
Exactly and if these Expresses keep going in that direction then and only them can we truly call them junk. I certainly hope that Remington is taking note.
Yes, I do expect every new firearm, out of the box, to function perfectly as designed that is what I paid for.
Be Safe !!!
Actually, my hunch is that the correct statement is: There was a period when 870 expresses were not as good out of the box as they used to be, but Remington has fixed those problems.
Many/most of the production specs have been changed for the better (no more dimples; going back to the ball detent on the magazine cap; eliminating the J-lock, for examples). The rough chamber defects and other manufacturing problems have been addressed. Remember that there are a lot of used guns changing hands and that distributor inventory means that guns sold today may have been produced a year, two or more ago.
For the record, I've never had an issue with any Express. Old or new. I don't personally know anyone who has ever had a problem. I read about the occasional Express problem on the internet, but they are usually cosmetic, or just a cleaning issue. My concern is that the Mossberg boys refuse to admit that their guns occasionally have issues as well.
The problem is not Remington, Mossberg, or any other manufacturer. Look in the mirror to find the problem. Remington or anyone else could build better guns, but when they do, we as consumers leave them on the shelves to save a few bucks. If Mossberg finds a way to make their gun $5 cheaper, Remington is forced to find a way to save $5 to be competetive.
At one time gun manufacturers were be in a race to produce the best gun they could. When Remington came up with an advancement that made their gun better, Mossberg had to match that to compete. The trend today is to see who can produce the cheapest gun they can make. They do that because that is what we are buying. Not just shotguns. Look at all the new models of handguns and rifles introduced in the last 10 years. Almost all of them have been made to be as inexpensive as possible.
And then we complain when they are not perfect.
The problem is not Remington, Mossberg, or any other manufacturer. Look in the mirror to find the problem. Remington or anyone else could build better guns, but when they do, we as consumers leave them on the shelves to save a few bucks. If Mossberg finds a way to make their gun $5 cheaper, Remington is forced to find a way to save $5 to be competetive.
At one time gun manufacturers were be in a race to produce the best gun they could. When Remington came up with an advancement that made their gun better, Mossberg had to match that to compete. The trend today is to see who can produce the cheapest gun they can make. They do that because that is what we are buying. Not just shotguns. Look at all the new models of handguns and rifles introduced in the last 10 years. Almost all of them have been made to be as inexpensive as possible.
And then we complain when they are not perfect.
Remington has a QC problem plain and simple and they know about it. The QC problem is minor but it's there and it cost the consumer & dealers extra time and money. Mossberg had very rough start with the 930SPX, QC sucked. They have made good on the first bad ones they put out and QC now is much better.
Remington has ignored the chamber problems. One of the the reasons is because of it's loyal customers you find in this thread. Mossberg has a somewhat loyal following but nothing near Remington's.
GC
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No takers yet.
Maybe Max will agree here. The glitches I hear about but have not seen include....
Failure to remove the factory preservative and otherwise follow the directions in the manual. Easy fix.
Rough chambers, both in the chamber itself and on the leading edge where a burr may impede feeding. 5 minutes to fix with the right tools.
Rare but documented cases of the shells latches being bent enough that feeding is iffy. IMO, warranty work or place it in the hands of a good smith. Not for kitchen table smithery.
Cheap, steel base ammo like the Winchester generic loads or Gun Clubs. For the record, some of my Wingmasters choke up on Gun Clubs. Like butter with other cases, but I haven't tried the Winchester bulkpacks.
NOTE: ANY 870 shucks smoother with a drop,just one, of oil applied to each action bar just in front of the receiver and then cycled a few times before a shooting session. Try it.
Finally, one has to consider the level of folks buying entry level shotguns. Some lack experience, either with shooting in general or pumps in particular.
And some may just be dense. It's not for me to say.
Anyway, I'll be at PGC tomorrow around 2PM. Let me know you're coming and I'll bring tools, cash and Frankenstein. Look for the big old guy on the 5 stand course with a plantation hat with a 50 straight patch on it and a big grin.....
Maybe Max will agree here. The glitches I hear about but have not seen include....
Failure to remove the factory preservative and otherwise follow the directions in the manual. Easy fix.
Rough chambers, both in the chamber itself and on the leading edge where a burr may impede feeding. 5 minutes to fix with the right tools.
Rare but documented cases of the shells latches being bent enough that feeding is iffy. IMO, warranty work or place it in the hands of a good smith. Not for kitchen table smithery.
Cheap, steel base ammo like the Winchester generic loads or Gun Clubs. For the record, some of my Wingmasters choke up on Gun Clubs. Like butter with other cases, but I haven't tried the Winchester bulkpacks.
NOTE: ANY 870 shucks smoother with a drop,just one, of oil applied to each action bar just in front of the receiver and then cycled a few times before a shooting session. Try it.
Finally, one has to consider the level of folks buying entry level shotguns. Some lack experience, either with shooting in general or pumps in particular.
And some may just be dense. It's not for me to say.
Anyway, I'll be at PGC tomorrow around 2PM. Let me know you're coming and I'll bring tools, cash and Frankenstein. Look for the big old guy on the 5 stand course with a plantation hat with a 50 straight patch on it and a big grin.....
I agree with all of it and there are a few chambers that are a little tight and need to be opened up a few thousands with a hone. The QC problems are minor but it's a big issue to some who don't know much about shotguns. They shouldn't have to correct problems anyway.
Will also add the MIM extractors rarely give problems.
GC
LanceOregon
Moderator
This brings back memories of my bitter divorce with my ex many years ago. She testified in court that my son's close attachment to my father ( my son's grandfather and godfather ) was unnatural. That a young boy should be close to his grandfather was inappropriate, in her opinion.
Both your remark here and hers come across as being rather absurd.
.
What does a shotgun have to do with your failed marriage? Sounds like you were using the kid as a bargaining chip.
It is hopeless to argue with those that worship at the altar of Big Green. They have drunk the koolaid.
I took my coworkers 870 in for the same problem last week. I took it to Bolsa Gunsmithing in Huntington Beach. They had to recut the chamber and polish it just like mine. No charge. Warranty work. They said they see this all the time.
You shouldn't have to even hone a new gun. It should work out of the box. Even if (WHICH IT IS NOT) it were some sort of problem with the preservative they use in the gun, how stupid is Remington for using something that would cause this type of problem with functioning?
Ex: I just bought a new stereo. The guy behind the counter told me to remove all the peanut butter from inside the unit and rewire the electronics and it will work fine. No problem.
It is hopeless to argue with those that worship at the altar of Big Green. They have drunk the koolaid.
I took my coworkers 870 in for the same problem last week. I took it to Bolsa Gunsmithing in Huntington Beach. They had to recut the chamber and polish it just like mine. No charge. Warranty work. They said they see this all the time.
You shouldn't have to even hone a new gun. It should work out of the box. Even if (WHICH IT IS NOT) it were some sort of problem with the preservative they use in the gun, how stupid is Remington for using something that would cause this type of problem with functioning?
Ex: I just bought a new stereo. The guy behind the counter told me to remove all the peanut butter from inside the unit and rewire the electronics and it will work fine. No problem.
It's fair to say that with any new shotgun that there is a break in period and during that period, it's possible that a glitch, or glitches will arise.
I also agree that there is the "newbie" factor that causes glitches that aren't really glitches, but just someone who is not informed,trained in firearms basic use, and or not being mechanically inclined.
I have, in the past and will probably in the present as well in the future ,help repair someones shotgun and will tell you that the problems that cause malfunctions are, neglect, not being familiar with the gun,and or minor parts failure, which has, for the most part, been rare.
Sticking chambers, rusting finishes, ammo sensitivity glitches in a new gun (re. 870 Express) can be attributed to lack of attention to detail by the manufacturer.
I'm not trying to slam the Express because I know some guys who deer hunt here in Tidewater , VA. and would scrap over someone calling the Express junk.
I also know some guys who would call the Express junk and would argue loudly with someone saying that they are good ,reliable shotguns.
Go figure.
I also agree that there is the "newbie" factor that causes glitches that aren't really glitches, but just someone who is not informed,trained in firearms basic use, and or not being mechanically inclined.
I have, in the past and will probably in the present as well in the future ,help repair someones shotgun and will tell you that the problems that cause malfunctions are, neglect, not being familiar with the gun,and or minor parts failure, which has, for the most part, been rare.
Sticking chambers, rusting finishes, ammo sensitivity glitches in a new gun (re. 870 Express) can be attributed to lack of attention to detail by the manufacturer.
I'm not trying to slam the Express because I know some guys who deer hunt here in Tidewater , VA. and would scrap over someone calling the Express junk.
I also know some guys who would call the Express junk and would argue loudly with someone saying that they are good ,reliable shotguns.
Go figure.