9mm v. grizzly

[TBM900]

Whenever you go into a dangerous area, you have to do what you can to maximize your chances of survival. Anything less is negligent.

Every time you go out in public...
Do you wear full IV body armor?
Do you carry a fully trauma kit, Lifepak, T&C/M blood?
Do you carry at minmum an infantry level loadout?
Do you carry IR lighting/aiming/vision/thermal imaging gear?
Do you carry sidearm and long gun able to defeat IV body armor?
Do you carry enough supplies on your person to save yourself and at least two others?

Every day at least 100 people are shot in the U.S.
Often by multiple assailants, often using "high power" rifles
Often at night or inside dark buildings or spaces
Often close friends, family, coworkers are the victims of these attacks

If you are not maximizing your chances of survival by taking the above basic steps...
Then using your own "logic" YOU are being negligent

 

[Forte S+W]

In hindsight, the most fishy part about this story lies in the fact that he somehow managed to get a total of 8 shots off on the bear.

I seriously doubt that said bear was changing if he managed to shoot it eight times, or at least it wasn't charging until he had already begun shooting it. Bears are way too fast a full charge to provide adequate time to get off 8 shots.

Also, if it took that many shots to drop the bear, then who cares? I'm pretty sure that most folks want to pack something that can drop a bear in as few shots as possible, so if anyone honestly starts carrying 9mm for Bear Defense based on this particular incident, then that's on them for thinking that a souped up 9mm by Buffalo Bore that took 8 shots to stop a bear is adequate for Bear Defense.

 

[44 AMP]

I seriously doubt that said bear was changing if he managed to shoot it eight times, or at least it wasn't charging until he had already begun shooting it. Bears are way too fast a full charge to provide adequate time to get off 8 shots.

I'll agree with that, but there is "charge" and then there is charge. Bears like many other mammals will sometimes advance rapidly, sometimes pause making threat display and advance again well below the speed of a full out "charge". Often even aggressive animals with predator instinct won't go into a full out charge /pounce if the "prey" isn't running away.

Most people (myself included) haven't acquired the skill to judge if its a full out charge or just a fast attack, or a bluff. When its a scary beast with big nasty teeth and claws or a couple tons crushing mass we tend to take the prudent course and assume the worst and act on it. And sometimes the people who have been through it enough to have the skill to make a sound judgement, sometimes, they're wrong.

Consider this, something I did back before my misspent youth took its toll.

9 shots .357 Magnum, 4.37 seconds, 7 bowling pins cleared off the table.
Aimed shots and two were at the base of a fallen pin facing me.

A personal best for me, and, I didn't even place 3rd that day.

Other people are faster than I was, and of course a rapidly approaching bear adds a degree of inspiration... 8 shots 9mm at a bear beginning at what distance? and was the bear at full speed or just fast enough to make it vital to shoot?? I don't know.

Difficult, sure, impossible? clearly not for that fellow that day.

Every day at least 100 people are shot in the U.S.
Often by multiple assailants, often using "high power" rifles

I'm not disputing this but I wonder just how "often" it is high power rifles. Last time I saw FBI data (admittedly some time) all rifles totaled up to about 3% of shootings and that included everything classed as a rifle regardless of caliber, so actual "high power" rifles would be an even smaller number.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I think an overriding sentiment here, albeit not necessarily a conscious one, is that 9mm against bear leaves members feeling uncomfortable at the suggestion.

As such we expect others including the guide to feel the same and can’t understand when they don’t.

 

[bamaranger]

"tease"

My opening statement regards "starting another bear thread" was because we have seen so many and they usually run the same way and cover the same ground. I continued with the post because it was news to me,and I believed that it had happened somewhat recently, and that others would be interested in the use of the 9mm handgun and the load used. I didn't post where to find it, do not know how to post links, and I figured anybody so interested could look it up for themselves.

I didn't intend to "tease" anybody, and wrote in the same style I generally always do, or at least I thought so, and has always been acceptable. Now I have apparently offended a moderator. My apologies to anybody else I have teased or offended. In my further defense, given the number of follow on posts , some others have found it a bit comment worthy.

 

[davidsog]

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/be...-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz6BqdmdCL5

That is it! I am carrying a single shot 22!

 

[TBM900]

I'm not disputing this but I wonder just how "often" it is high power rifles. Last time I saw FBI data (admittedly some time) all rifles totaled up to about 3% of shootings and that included everything classed as a rifle regardless of caliber, so actual "high power" rifles would be an even smaller number.

It was sarcasm, hence the quotes around high power.
Leftists deem pretty much any long gun as "high power".

 

[TBM900]

I think an overriding sentiment here, albeit not necessarily a conscious one, is that 9mm against bear leaves members feeling uncomfortable at the suggestion.

As such we expect others including the guide to feel the same and can’t understand when they don’t.

Quite correct, emotion over rational thought, logic, history, and first hand experience.
Which is what allows manufacturers to charge $2-3 per round of boutique 9mm in a fancy plastic box.

 

[American Man]

Every time you go out in public...
Do you wear full IV body armor?
Do you carry a fully trauma kit, Lifepak, T&C/M blood?
Do you carry at minmum an infantry level loadout?
Do you carry IR lighting/aiming/vision/thermal imaging gear?
Do you carry sidearm and long gun able to defeat IV body armor?
Do you carry enough supplies on your person to save yourself and at least two others?

Every day at least 100 people are shot in the U.S.
Often by multiple assailants, often using "high power" rifles
Often at night or inside dark buildings or spaces
Often close friends, family, coworkers are the victims of these attacks

If you are not maximizing your chances of survival by taking the above basic steps...
Then using your own "logic" YOU are being negligent

I'll try to break this down.

I'll start with just the very basics of the basic that would help you maximize survival, despite him actually accomplishing that task with a 9mm. I still haven't lost sight of him actually getting the job done. Biggest threat near a river in AK=big brown bear... even though you could encounter other threats than a brown bear. I've been charged by moose several times, and only gripped my 357 one time and still didn't need to shoot it. I have spent a lot of time out west and up in AK so I speak from experience. My first sight of a grizzly, close proximity, I had a sad realization that I felt underpowered with a 44 and all it was doing was walking by. So when I say maximize your chances of survival, I'm referring to the thing you might need the most and that is a big bore revolver, various desert eagle semis, 10mm at the very minimum and I'll even say if this guy had a 10mm, I would not even have commented... not that 10mm will guarantee victory every time. I have cases of the rounds he used, I'm just never going to use them for what he used them for.

I did not recommend running a drone and scanning the woods and brush below, something you left off your list, something I actually do where I live because I live deep in the backwoods and have a lot of time on my hands.

I don't use a chemical sniffer and sample the trail every yard either.

I'm not saying you should not accept any risk whatsoever. When 44amp stated that the couple may be putting themselves at risk, that is true too and I did not dispute that. In fact everything he stated is true, I just believe even though things turned out ok, he still put lives at risk. I will back off about how skill had nothing to do with it... it did. I'll concede that.

The rest of your list I have used before... not here in the states though. Have you? And don't compare LE to us or any agency stateside. I even added a small strong spatula to our list. Helps you separate melted skin from the inside of a vehicle so you can evac casualties quicker and more efficient than using the bottom of a magazine like a chisel.

Anyway, in the spirit of not getting another thread closed. My argument was mainly about the choice of firearm. Most people get that. I'm not surprised in the least by your questions and I'm trying to be polite here. But if you don't mind, why don't you answer some of the questions I posed in my post you just had to reply to.

And look at the pic... those are my dogs. I do travel with that

I'll repost a paragraph.
I asked some questions in my other post. Who here would be comfortable knowing their friends or family were headed off to coastal brown bear territory with a guide that just has a 9mm? Let's say you have some life long friends that don't know anything about guns and they're checking in with you before they head out and you ask them a few questions about this guide and what he's carrying. How about if they are your family? Do you just say, "good luck Dad, I hope this guide knows what he's doing?"

 

[TBM900]

Did you answer any of preparedness my questions, or are you being "negligent'?

 

[Forte S+W]

I'll agree with that, but there is "charge" and then there is charge. Bears like many other mammals will sometimes advance rapidly, sometimes pause making threat display and advance again well below the speed of a full out "charge". Often even aggressive animals with predator instinct won't go into a full out charge /pounce if the "prey" isn't running away.

Most people (myself included) haven't acquired the skill to judge if its a full out charge or just a fast attack, or a bluff. When its a scary beast with big nasty teeth and claws or a couple tons crushing mass we tend to take the prudent course and assume the worst and act on it. And sometimes the people who have been through it enough to have the skill to make a sound judgement, sometimes, they're wrong.

I had presumed that a guide by profession would know the difference between a mock charge and a full charge, but then again, maybe he was more self-aware of his choice in that moment than anybody is giving him credit for and he just didn't want to chance it while armed only with 9mm.

Consider this, something I did back before my misspent youth took its toll.

9 shots .357 Magnum, 4.37 seconds, 7 bowling pins cleared off the table.
Aimed shots and two were at the base of a fallen pin facing me.

A personal best for me, and, I didn't even place 3rd that day.

Other people are faster than I was, and of course a rapidly approaching bear adds a degree of inspiration... 8 shots 9mm at a bear beginning at what distance? and was the bear at full speed or just fast enough to make it vital to shoot?? I don't know.

Difficult, sure, impossible? clearly not for that fellow that day.

Granted, but those bowling pins were stationary targets, not a high-speed moving target such as the bear was. If the bear were at the same distance as those bowling pins and advancing towards you, how much time do you estimate that you would have had before it reached you?
Furthermore, we can't be sure how proficient Shoemaker was with the firearm/load he was carrying, but I'm going to presume that he didn't put anywhere near as much of that expensive Buffalo Bore ammo downrange prior to his encounter with the bear, as you had before you set your personal best record speed-shooting at those bowling pins.

 

[TBM900]

Furthermore, we can't be sure how proficient Shoemaker was with the firearm/load he was carrying

Given the DRT state of the bear...
Given that he and his clients came out unscathed...
Given his experience and long history of guiding the area...
I’m going to go out on a limb and say he was proficient.

 

[44 AMP]

If the bear were at the same distance as those bowling pins and advancing towards you, how much time do you estimate that you would have had before it reached you?

Memory says my 30 year old ego would say time enough for every damned one! and my 60+year old reality says time for maybe 3 shots, maybe..probably less. Additional background (not that it matters) is that the pin shoots were held 3-4 times during the summer always on a Sunday after I had worked the graveyard shift, and I NEVER practiced pin shooting or any kind of speed shooting at the time. I did it for fun, and didn't have any kind of "pin gun" or race gun (as many did) I was shooting MY guns and in the case of the .357 Mag, it was a Desert Eagle.

I mentioned it because the "kill zone" on a bowling pin is a small target, and while nothing like a fast moving bear it was an example of me being able to hit small targets, requiring good aim for each, at speed, with a powerful handgun.

Not trying to imply I could do the same on a charging bear, only an example of a personal example of a number of fast accurate shots, so I know the kind of difficulty involved, to a degree.

8 shots, and, unless someone here is kind enough to provide the specific details, (and an autopsy report) we don't know the distance he started at, ended at, or how fast the bear was actually moving, and we don't know if more than one of those shots was a fatal wound or not. Clearly at least one was, the bear died, but which one(s)? Was his first round fatal and he managed to pump 7 more into the bear before it went down? Shot #3? Shots 2,4,5,and 7? we don't know. Perhaps it was only his last shot? we don't know, and can't know with the info we have.

I agree, going out in dangerous bear country with "only" a 9mm sounds like a barking STUPID idea. No matter what loads you have in it.

I had presumed that a guide by profession would know the difference between a mock charge and a full charge,...

I too would expect that, from a PH on safari (and I would consider that skill one of the things I am paying big bucks for!).

An Alaskan fishing guide? Good if he can, not sure I'd expect he could as a given. And there is always the complicating factor that sometimes the animals themselves don't know the difference and a mock charge might turn real on the beast's second step, or a real one stop "short" just because something changed the beasts mind.

 

[Forte S+W]

Given the DRT state of the bear...

After a whole eight shots. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding here, but it is to my understanding that DRT is an acronym for Dead Right There, meaning on the spot in one shot.

Given that he and his clients came out unscathed...

There are too many variables at play here for that to be owed solely to his proficiency with the firearm.

Given his experience and long history of guiding the area...

What does that have to do with his proficiency with the 9mm BB load? It was his first time ever taking it out on the field with him, ergo his experience is completely irrelevant.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say he was proficient.

Well, you got that much correct, at least.

 

[44 AMP]

it is to my understanding that DRT is an acronym for Dead Right There, meaning on the spot in one shot.

My understanding is Dead Right There but the # of shots is variable. USUALLY its used when only one shot is fired, but its not limited. DRT essentially means "did not run off"

 

[Koda94]

His handgun in this episode was a 9mm S&W 3954, loaded with Buffalo Bore 147 grain RNFP hardcast ammo. He likely fired 8 rds, obtained hits with all. There are at least two printed articles on the episode.

Shoemaker's the real deal, no tinhorn by all reports. I've read some of his stuff over the years, seems very well thought out. What lead him to carry the 9mm 'Smith would make for an interesting conversation.

Some might mention luck, but I'm reading the guy fired 8 rds and scored 8 hits. I'm reading the guy chose some very specific ammo designed specifically for the task.
This doesn't sound like luck to me but skill and experience.

The video I'm sharing here isn't about that Buffalo Bore round, but it shows what a cheap simple 9mm HP does compared to a 357 mag. The results on a "meat target" are impressive for such a small round.

https://youtu.be/CD2t_qG9dls?t=647

 

[agtman]

it is to my understanding that DRT is an acronym for Dead Right There, meaning on the spot in one shot.

Exactly.

My understanding is Dead Right There but the # of shots is variable. USUALLY its used when only one shot is fired, but its not limited. DRT essentially means "did not run off"

Not at all correct.

'DRT' is a synonym for 'OSS' - meaning 'made dead' by a 'one-shot stop.'

 

[Nanuk]

The video I'm sharing here isn't about that Buffalo Bore round, but it shows what a cheap simple 9mm HP does compared to a 357 mag. The results on a "meat target" are impressive for such a small round.

He just showed what many of us have known for decades. The 357 magnum is better than the 9mm. None of the loads tested, nor the test "media" would be acceptable for use with large dangerous game.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

it is to my understanding that DRT is an acronym for Dead Right There, meaning on the spot in one shot.

My understanding is Dead Right There but the # of shots is variable. USUALLY its used when only one shot is fired, but its not limited. DRT essentially means "did not run off"

True, but from the sounds of it, the bear may not have been DRT for the first several shots given that it was charging.

Not at all correct.

'DRT' is a synonym for 'OSS' - meaning 'made dead' by a 'one-shot stop.'

I don't know how you can claim 44 AMP's definition is wrong. There is no governing body that has defined DRT as you have described. It is slang or a colloquialism applied in varied contexts. However, I would certainly argue that DRT is NOT a synonym for one shot stop because one shot stops do not necessarily imply that the shootee is dead, only that they stopped. On top of that, DRT is an expression applied outside of just shooting circumstances.

A synonym is a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly acted the same thing as another word or phrase and DRT and OSS are not synonyms. They can be similar expressions, but are not synonyms.

When you do look up DRT via the internet, for those sites that do list define it, you will find it as ...
dead right there (no attribution to COD) https://www.internetslang.com/DRT-meaning-definition.asp https://www.citylab.com/life/2013/0...ew-cop-slang-app-are-predictably-filthy/6736/
not able to be brought back to life https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=DRT
dead at scene of accident https://acronym24.com/drt-meaning-in-medical/

Quite interestingly, we had a discussion on this very thing some 10 years ago. It is amazing how varied the definitions of 'dead right there' varied by people...
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421382 Some people had DRT as being dead in under 8 seconds, 2 steps, 50 yards, no steps, no steps but dies there, instant kill, etc.

 

[44 AMP]

'DRT' is a synonym for 'OSS' -...

I had never heard the term OSS used to mean "one shot stop" until that post. DRT I have heard used for decades as a slang term.

In my world OSS (in capital letters) is the abbreviation for the Office of Strategic Services. the clandestine organization that became the CIA after WWII. In your world, its clearly something else.

Every short 2,3,4 (or more) letter combination has multiple meanings, dozens possibly much more, depending on context and what group is using it. "Text speak" on phones has its own set, so does each industry, the military "runs on them", and "etc."!!

And that's just in English. Add in other languages and any "letter code group" can have hundreds of possible meanings.

UNLESS you have an "official" designation, then I am the HMFIC of deciding what I read means, as you are, for you.

Dictionary definitions are useful, for many things, but are NOT the be all, end all arbiter of all terminology. Read their "disclaimer" section, they will state, somewhere, in some fashion, that they give definitions as found "in common use". They also often give definitions found in "historical use". Those can be different. Also different are the use definitions in specific contexts.

What pops into your mind when you see "RAM"?? is it to collide with something? A male sheep? A Dodge truck? Random Access Memory??? something else??? What about "SS"?? Social Security? Secret Service? Schutzstaffel? stainless steel? or perhaps "stir, slowly"?

Its a wonderful, complex, confusing world today, and it doesn't seem to be getting any simpler.