9mm v. grizzly

I used the term "Nay-sayers", not Black Wolf. I can't say that I would choose a 9mm auto for brown bear country. I think I would opt for the largest caliber that I could shoot well. After all, what good is a big gun if you can't do with it what you need to.

What I can say is that I have no experience in brown bear country. I am not a veteran Alaskan guide. I have no background or experience to criticize what that man did that day. And, luck or not, everyone involved survived without injury as far as I know.

I lived in Montana for a couple years when I was young (4-6). My dad and my brother used to hunt mule deer there. I don't recall any stories of bear encounters from them. My dad passed away 17 years ago and my brother has been estranged from the family for nearly 15 years. I can't ask them. I now reside in black bear country and, for that, I am comfortable with my 9mm for that purpose.
 
I have mixed feeling about Phil's stunt. On the positive it showed that properly placed .355" diameter bullets will kill a bear if they penetrate deep enough. The negative is the myriad of people who will believe they are adequately armed by buying a box of Buffalo Bore or Underwood 147gr hardcast +p for their Shield.. The minimalist mindset sure seems dangerous when considering the animal they are trying to stop.
 
Metric said:
How do you think .22lr would do against wolves?

Depends on the gun as well as the size of the wolf. Folks have successfully hunted coyotes with .22LR Rifles for as long as the cartridge has been around, so obviously a wolf of similar size would go down just as easily.
However, hunting and self-defense are essentially the exact polar opposite to one another, (when hunting, you're the predator, in self-defense, you're the prey) and obviously a .22LR Rifle isn't the best choice for self-defense against wild animals.

Folks most often choose handguns for self-defense because they're much faster to deploy and can be operated one-handed, so if a predatory animal ambushes you, you can draw and fire as quickly as possible.

Obviously, .22LR is going to have substantially lower velocity and energy out of a 3"-6" Barrel of a Handgun than out of a 16"+ Barrel of a rifle.
So generally speaking, you'd be better off carrying a pistol chambered in a centerfire cartridge. In other words, just carry whatever you already carry for 2-Legged Predators. Anything that can stop a man should stop a wolf.

Personally, I'm am of the mindset that one should carry the biggest, most powerful firearm that they can handle proficiently, as well as a smaller backup gun. Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
 
Reading this thread, you might almost think he broke the law killing that bear with a 9mm!

I can’t say I would rely on a 9mm in bear country; I was always more comfortable with a 4” 629 loaded with 280 grain cast flat nose bullets. But, I never had to use it, so I cannot speak from experience like Phil can. I suspect few have any real experience, but read a lot of gun mags.
 
I used the term "Nay-sayers", not Black Wolf. I can't say that I would choose a 9mm auto for brown bear country. I think I would opt for the largest caliber that I could shoot well. After all, what good is a big gun if you can't do with it what you need to.

What I can say is that I have no experience in brown bear country. I am not a veteran Alaskan guide. I have no background or experience to criticize what that man did that day. And, luck or not, everyone involved survived without injury as far as I know.

I lived in Montana for a couple years when I was young (4-6). My dad and my brother used to hunt mule deer there. I don't recall any stories of bear encounters from them. My dad passed away 17 years ago and my brother has been estranged from the family for nearly 15 years. I can't ask them. I now reside in black bear country and, for that, I am comfortable with my 9mm for that purpose.
Sorry about the mix up. You're right... if that is all someone can handle for a number of reasons, age, disability... then that is what they are better off using. I'd also suggest a career change, one that lives aren't dependent on him.

I am personally a fan of the UW and BB offerings, especially the 9mm 147+ Outdoorsman that he used. The bulk of my time, when I'm not traveling around, is spent in the Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah NP and Monongahela and that BB load is the minimum I will carry... out west I upgrade considerably.

Confidence and overconfidence can cause complacency. Surviving this situation can cause complacency. I don't mean to dwell on the negative, I just read this story and it irritates the heck out of me. I'll have to ease up I guess. lol
 
The Right Way to do it ...

Anyone using a 9mm pistol (regardless of load) to stop or turn a charge by a big Alaskan bruin is either a complete idiot ... or a reckless 'show-off' trying to impress clients or, in Shoemaker's case, also editors of gun-rags so he can send them yet another 'bear' article detailing his 'harrowing adventures' and 'death-defying feats' in the 'dangerous wilds of Alaska.' :rolleyes:

Either way, trying to sell folks on a 9mm 'bear-stopper' load, like BB's 147gn hardcast load, is only going to get people killed.

If you have to deal with a 'surprise visit' by an agressive AK bear with a pistol, here's a relatively recent news piece (below) signaling the correct way to do it, ... which is also the same way soldiers of the Danish Sledge Patrol Sirius handle unexpected polar bear attacks in the arctic circle regions of Greenland to which they're assigned. They're also not trying to pull stunts so they can write articles about it later for readers of Rifle magazine. :rolleyes:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/al...k-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz6BbgdF2ZW

:cool:
 
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What is the most important element? In this situation....luck.
I have never seen a brown/grizzly bear in the wild. Thank goodness. I have fished the Russian River and the Little Susitna and the Kenai River during the salmon runs. Walked from the Sterling Hwy through a few hundred yards of woods to fish. Spooky. I wondered at the time what I would do if a bear showed up. It would have been a surprise because the woods were thick. I was with my son. We had no firearms, just a couple of fly rods.
We saw no bears. We did see the bones of the salmon that they had eaten...the flesh still red. We fished a bit, walked back through the woods and went on our way down to Homer.
Luck? No more lucky than the many other folk who fish the rivers. The luck part would have been if I'd had a gun and I'd had to use it.
 
Anyone using a 9mm pistol (regardless of load) to stop or turn a charge by a big Alaskan bruin is either an complete idiot ... or a reckless 'show-off' trying to impress clients or, in Shoemaker's case, also editors of gun-rags so he can send them yet another 'bear' article detailing his 'harrowing adventures' and 'death-defying feats' in the 'dangerous wilds of Alaska.' :rolleyes:

Either way, trying to sell folks on a 9mm 'bear-stopper' load, like BB's 147gn hardcast load, is only going to get people killed.

If you have to deal with a 'surprise visit' by an agressive AK bear with a pistol, here's a relatively recent news piece (below) signaling the correct way to do it, ... which is also the same way soldiers of the Danish Sledge Patrol Sirius handle unexpected polar bear attacks in the arctic circle regions of Greenland to which they're assigned. They're also not trying to pull stunts so they can write articles about it later for readers of Rifle magazine. :rolleyes:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/al...k-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz6BbgdF2ZW

:cool:
Great post as always agtman! This is a great thread, not because of the Shoemaker story but because, IMO, it proves a couple of important points and I'm talking about the veteran in the Ammoland article.

1.It's the Indian, not the arrow! Being proficient with the weapon.
2.Shot placement is more important than anything.
3.Shot placement must be accompanied by a cartridge capable enough to do the job.
4.The weapon, in this case a Glock, must be utterly reliable in all conditions.

This is true for any self defense situations.

But, as you say, and I always believe, follow the $$$!... I am always skeptical that someone is always trying to sell me something :)
 
Agtman: Outstanding post....

I've no experience in Alaska, hunting, but have done some fishing up there. The locals and one guide I knew back then (20+) years ago, carried big revolvers or shotguns for bear defense. Breneke slugs were the round of choice as I recall.

All that said, I'd say that guide, even given his "vast" experience was very lucky using a 9mm...and I truly wonder at his decision making process in selecting it for carry in that area. Lucky is the operative word...and yeah I know that supposedly .22's have killed bear...and their users were lucky too. I just wonder if the guide in question would make the same choice again...using a 9mm, that is?

YMMv, Rod
 
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10 MM Glock

We don't have a bear problem, yet, in lower Alabama or NW Florida. However, I wanted a pistol capable of holding lots of bullets and hitting HARD, in case I ever needed one for protection against large animals, including bears. I purchased a 10 MM Glock that holds 15 rounds of 155 grain hand loaded FMJs. I have chron-ied them at 1325 FPS (avg). This is VERY close to 158 grain 357 factory loads/velocities (4-6" barrels) but I have 15 shots, not 6. When scared, I probably would miss a lot. I also carry 2 extra magazines in a shoulder holster rig. There is no doubt in my mind that shooting any bear with many hardball or FMJ bullets would mortally wound a bear. A head/brain shot (if you could hold still and not pee all over yourself) would kill instantly.
 
In the event of an actual bear charge, pretty much everyone is going to have an urgent wish for something like a 12 gauge with magnum slugs. We all get that.

But it is very welcome news that we are not completely helpless in the event of getting caught out in the open with a pistol in 10mm or even a 9mm. It can legitimately save your bacon against large brown bears. That is very different from the conventional wisdom I heard as a kid -- that you might as well use a pistol to blow your brains out, because the bullet just wasn't going to have anywhere near useful penetration. It's nice that people are making an effort to cobble together some facts.

It's good news because there are a huge number of scenarios where the main risk is human encounters, but the bear risk is not exactly zero.
 
Anyone using a 9mm pistol (regardless of load) to stop or turn a charge by a big Alaskan bruin is either a complete idiot ... or a reckless 'show-off' trying to impress clients or, in Shoemaker's case, also editors of gun-rags so he can send them yet another 'bear' article detailing his 'harrowing adventures' and 'death-defying feats' in the 'dangerous wilds of Alaska.' :rolleyes:

Either way, trying to sell folks on a 9mm 'bear-stopper' load, like BB's 147gn hardcast load, is only going to get people killed.

If you have to deal with a 'surprise visit' by an agressive AK bear with a pistol, here's a relatively recent news piece (below) signaling the correct way to do it, ... which is also the same way soldiers of the Danish Sledge Patrol Sirius handle unexpected polar bear attacks in the arctic circle regions of Greenland to which they're assigned. They're also not trying to pull stunts so they can write articles about it later for readers of Rifle magazine. :rolleyes:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/al...k-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz6BbgdF2ZW

:cool:

I will go along with this. Someone mentioned that if it as all you can handle fo what ever reason, use it. I'd say if it's all you can handle carry a suitable rifl or stay out of bar country. You go in and wound one, after the bear tears you apart someone else is gonna have to go in after a wounded bear or some inspecting hiker will find it by accident! Very rude to go in to country like that with some under armed cartridge and risk leaving a wounded dangerous animal for someone else to deal with.
 
If nothing else, I think that we can all agree that 9mm Luger isn't the best choice for Bear Defense. All this proves is that 9mm Luger CAN be effective against bears, but that was already pretty much a given considering that there have been reports of bears being killed by pretty much every cartridge at some point or another, including .22LR.

I think that folks are taking this article way too seriously, considering statements that it's going to get people killed. I doubt that the article nor the occurrence within will convince anybody to carry their LC9s into bear country.
Honestly, I doubt that even the most adamant of 9mm Fanboys who go around touting it as the ultimate, all-purpose, self-defense cartridge which has effectively rendered all other pistol cartridges obsolete would be willing to stake their lives on it by trekking into the wilderness armed only with a 9mm Pistol.
Heck, I doubt that even Phil Shoemaker himself will exclusively carry 9mm after the dust settles and he has had time to consider the fact that he's responsible for more lives than his own in his profession, not to mention the possibility that it could have been a fluke and that next time it might not be as affective.

If anything, I imagine this article is more likely to wake people up that you shouldn't trust everything you read as objective fact, and illustrate the results of confirmation biased/positive feedback loops now that the glowing articles on the 9mm Luger cartridge are finally beginning to jump the shark.
It's one thing to say that modern hollow point technology has placed 9mm Luger on par with .40 S&W or .45 ACP according to the parameters of FBI/IWBA ballistics testing, or that if loaded hot enough it can equal the Kinetic energy of .40 S&W or .45 ACP, but once you start trying to push it as being just as effective against bears as .44 Magnum, that's the point where folks are going to stop paying any heed to these articles because it's completely absurd.
 
I will go along with this. Someone mentioned that if it as all you can handle fo what ever reason, use it. I'd say if it's all you can handle carry a suitable rifl or stay out of bar country. You go in and wound one, after the bear tears you apart someone else is gonna have to go in after a wounded bear or some inspecting hiker will find it by accident! Very rude to go in to country like that with some under armed cartridge and risk leaving a wounded dangerous animal for someone else to deal with.
To be fair, I did recommend he change his career and not put anyone else's life in danger if that is the only gun he can handle. If I could not carry a big bore or at a minimum a Glock 20 or equivalent, I don't think I would be so adventurous in AK or out west. And your point about wounding a bear and not finishing the job, that's another great reason not to have a 9mm as a primary. That's like making a ticking time bomb someone else's problem.
 
This thread has been a tease and a disappointment from the beginning. First it starts out with "I hate to start another pistol vs bear thread", but then does

then it names an incident that apparently some people know about and where it is written up, but no one tells the rest of us where that is so we can read it ourselves...

then we go on with people making assumptions about information not provided and so on and so on....

Didn't see anyone claiming the 9mm (with any load) was good bear medicine but people were saying the guide did.

If he did, WHERE did he? absent that small bit of info its all just rumor.

He put people in danger, he needs to find a new line of work and so on
all I see is a report that a 9mm was used to kill a bear. And damn little else.
 
This thread has been a tease and a disappointment from the beginning. First it starts out with "I hate to start another pistol vs bear thread", but then does

then it names an incident that apparently some people know about and where it is written up, but no one tells the rest of us where that is so we can read it ourselves...

then we go on with people making assumptions about information not provided and so on and so on....

Didn't see anyone claiming the 9mm (with any load) was good bear medicine but people were saying the guide did.

If he did, WHERE did he? absent that small bit of info its all just rumor.

He put people in danger, he needs to find a new line of work and so on
all I see is a report that a 9mm was used to kill a bear. And damn little else.
This isn't a new story to some of us. I've read his original story and remember it form BB's site. Here it is: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388 Scroll Down.

"Didn't see anyone claiming the 9mm (with any load) was good bear medicine but people were saying the guide did."
Why is the guide carrying it if he didn't think it was a good bear load? 33 years guiding, what are we supposed to think he thinks is the biggest threat out there? In the original website by the OP, he thought he would have less problems with the males than sows with cubs.

Are you doubting he put people in danger? Seriously?

Why don't you post some format and criteria that we can all fill in the blanks to make you happy.
 
Hardcast bullets, proper placement by an experienced guide. Problem solved.

My big take away form all this? The threads asking if .357 Magnum is big enough for whitetail and the debate it gets.

On the same forum.
 
Are you doubting he put people in danger? Seriously?

yes, actually, I am.

You are, of course free to look at it any way you want, but to me, you could say the bear put people in danger or you could say the people put themselves in danger by voluntarily going into "bear country". And keeping in mind that the guide was equally in danger, and apparently the only one armed, and able to do something about it, and he did, AND was successful, I don't see that he put people in danger, rather the opposite.

We can argue about how his choice (and why he made it) differs from what we would choose, the fact remains no people were injured.

Not having ANY gun would be something that would bother me. Having a gun deemed "insufficient" by most people BUT USING IT SUCCUSSFULLY is, to me a much different matter.
 
Hardcast bullets, proper placement by an experienced guide. Problem solved.

My big take away form all this? The threads asking if .357 Magnum is big enough for whitetail and the debate it gets.

On the same forum.

Yup, couldn't agree more.
I would have no problem using the same choice he made.
Just as Ive been hunting with 357 Magnum for decades (revolver and rifle) and have had excellent results.

Our continent was explored and settled by men armed with rifles that often could barely break 500 ft/lbs with a lowly lead sphere, and successfully used them to take some of the largest game/predators on earth. Yet in our modern "educated" era, people scoff at the notion of using a 3" 357 revolver, producing close to 600 ft/lbs of hi-tec high-tech projectile, on piddly deer.
:confused:

IMO too many people today invest emotion into their caliber choices, instead of rational thought, logic, history, and first hand experience. I suspect in large part as an ill guided, distorted form of machismo, just look at all the rhetoric thrown about in caliber discussions. Or the countless articles and advertising of the latest "wonder ammo", and the most cringeworthy....."gel tests".

Well over half a century hunting, more than four decades in law enforcement combined, and I have yet to see a wound that mimicked any gel test. I've met folks that literally believe what bullets do in gel, is what they do in people/animals.

Practice
Placement
Penetration
;)
 
yes, actually, I am.

You are, of course free to look at it any way you want, but to me, you could say the bear put people in danger or you could say the people put themselves in danger by voluntarily going into "bear country". And keeping in mind that the guide was equally in danger, and apparently the only one armed, and able to do something about it, and he did, AND was successful, I don't see that he put people in danger, rather the opposite.

We can argue about how his choice (and why he made it) differs from what we would choose, the fact remains no people were injured.

Not having ANY gun would be something that would bother me. Having a gun deemed "insufficient" by most people BUT USING IT SUCCUSSFULLY is, to me a much different matter.

The guy gets lucky and people want to chalk this up to skill. Amazing.

Whenever you go into a dangerous area, you have to do what you can to maximize your chances of survival. Anything less is negligent. Did Phil know he would get time for 8 shots that day? Not sure how many stories I've read of someone getting 8 shots on a bear in 3 different areas of the scene... pretty much just this story. So Phil knew the scenario that would present itself would allow him to get off a few shots, then the bear would stop and swat and thrash at his impacts and then after the bear is done swatting or posing for more shots, run off into the wood line and collapse? Who would plan for that? What is the more likely scenario we plan for in AK? Me, it's a sudden charge hoping you have time to get a one shot off. And do you drill with a 9mm?

Maybe I am off on how I look at the responsibility of a guide. I picture a guide with a couple from NY and I assume this guide is not just there to operate a GPS and let them know when it's time to eat lunch. If I'm guiding someone or group I'm not going to give them a safety brief before we depart that reads like a list of ways I'm not responsible for their lives. I don't expect the guide to be responsible for their lives if there is an earthquake, but to help them enjoy their trip safely and make sure they're alive, that is the minimum I would expect of myself as a guide. This is a couple by a river and not a hunting party.

I asked some questions in my other post. Who here would be comfortable knowing their friends or family were headed off to coastal brown bear territory with a guide that just has a 9mm? Let's say you have some life long friends that don't know anything about guns and they're checking in with you before they head out and you ask them a few questions about this guide and what he's carrying. How about if they are your family? Do you just say, "good luck Dad, I hope this guide knows what he's doing?"

Me, I'm asking to them to put the guide on the phone. I wouldn't be interested in hearing any BS about why he is just taking a 9mm, I don't care if they are Kryptonite FN. In my former profession, hitting fast moving targets is expected of us, under high stress. I consider a brown bear in dense brush to be as dangerous a situation as there could be. There is not one person I know that would, 1, use a 9mm intentionally to go up against a brown bear or feel like they were adequately armed if there was even a remote possibility of a brown bear being around, and 2, there is no one I would agree to have cover me with a 9mm in that scenario.

I've seen enough worst case scenarios play out. I don't plan based on the best case scenario.

ADDING THIS: Certain people, they know who they are, feel free to not respond to me. None of my post is in response their post.
 
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