9mm v .357 power for Concealed Carry
- Thread starter CDW4ME
- Start date
Rampant_Colt
New member
revolver -vs- autoloader
apples -vs- oranges
Muzzle energy has nothing to do with handgun stopping power.. Uninformed people need to stop choosing ammo simply based on muzzle energy. Stopping power is defined as 'where you hit the bad guy, and how many times you can hit them'. Penetration and bullet expansion are also part of the equation. It's a lot more complicated than that. Overall bullet performance depends on many variables▬bullet design the most
I could also argue that bullet designs for the .357 Magnum have remained relatively stagnant while new, state-of-the-art bullet developments for 9mm ammunition are an on-going effort.
Using duty loads, the wimpy 9mm will achieve the same levels of penetration and expansion as the mighty .357 Mag without the recoil, blast and drama, whilst having more ammunition on tap. So what do you prefer, a revolver, or autoloader? apples n oranges..
In other news
Double Tap uses greatly exaggerated velocity figures to entice the energy/velocity crowd into buying their ammunition.. Owned by Marketing 101
1425 fps from a 2" barrel LoL
apples -vs- oranges
Muzzle energy has nothing to do with handgun stopping power.. Uninformed people need to stop choosing ammo simply based on muzzle energy. Stopping power is defined as 'where you hit the bad guy, and how many times you can hit them'. Penetration and bullet expansion are also part of the equation. It's a lot more complicated than that. Overall bullet performance depends on many variables▬bullet design the most
I could also argue that bullet designs for the .357 Magnum have remained relatively stagnant while new, state-of-the-art bullet developments for 9mm ammunition are an on-going effort.
Using duty loads, the wimpy 9mm will achieve the same levels of penetration and expansion as the mighty .357 Mag without the recoil, blast and drama, whilst having more ammunition on tap. So what do you prefer, a revolver, or autoloader? apples n oranges..
In other news
Double Tap uses greatly exaggerated velocity figures to entice the energy/velocity crowd into buying their ammunition.. Owned by Marketing 101
1425 fps from a 2" barrel LoL
azsixshooter
New member
Love 'em both
When I lived in AZ I carried my 4" 686 a lot. I loaded it with hot 125 grn SJWCHP's in Phx city limits (carried it concealed for at least 2 years). If I was out in the desert I changed that to a snake shot followed up with 5 125 grn hot loads. If I was pred calling where there might be bears or bowhunting/camping/etc. up on the rim or in the mtns I loaded up with Buff Bore Heavys with a speedloader of 125 gr hot loads and a speedloader of Heavys on my belt. I never worried too much about cougars, I think the 125's would be more than adequate. I never heard they were hard to kill. I always felt pretty good with my .357 Mag and I still love shooting her.
I've since picked up a SAXD9 and I carry 124 gr +P Federal HST's. 1 in the pipe, 16 in the mag and another 16 in a spare mag or three. I feel really good with her too and she's so much fun to shoot. Plenty of juice, but at an affordable price.
I don't know, you can argue all day long about whatever whatever, but if you can put the biscuit in the basket then shot placement is king and penetration is queen. I don't think there's much a .357 Mag can do to the CNS that a nice, modern 9x19 can't if both are placed equally well. I mean, neutralized is still neutralized right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but if you miss and hit an attacker in the arm or something is the .357 mag gonna magically put him on the ground? Or the .500 S&W for that matter? Granted, I would HATE to take a .500 to the anywhere. I just mean, shoot what you can afford to shoot a lot, get surgical with it and as long as it penetrates sufficiently you're golden.
When I lived in AZ I carried my 4" 686 a lot. I loaded it with hot 125 grn SJWCHP's in Phx city limits (carried it concealed for at least 2 years). If I was out in the desert I changed that to a snake shot followed up with 5 125 grn hot loads. If I was pred calling where there might be bears or bowhunting/camping/etc. up on the rim or in the mtns I loaded up with Buff Bore Heavys with a speedloader of 125 gr hot loads and a speedloader of Heavys on my belt. I never worried too much about cougars, I think the 125's would be more than adequate. I never heard they were hard to kill. I always felt pretty good with my .357 Mag and I still love shooting her.
I've since picked up a SAXD9 and I carry 124 gr +P Federal HST's. 1 in the pipe, 16 in the mag and another 16 in a spare mag or three. I feel really good with her too and she's so much fun to shoot. Plenty of juice, but at an affordable price.
I don't know, you can argue all day long about whatever whatever, but if you can put the biscuit in the basket then shot placement is king and penetration is queen. I don't think there's much a .357 Mag can do to the CNS that a nice, modern 9x19 can't if both are placed equally well. I mean, neutralized is still neutralized right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but if you miss and hit an attacker in the arm or something is the .357 mag gonna magically put him on the ground? Or the .500 S&W for that matter? Granted, I would HATE to take a .500 to the anywhere. I just mean, shoot what you can afford to shoot a lot, get surgical with it and as long as it penetrates sufficiently you're golden.
This is really funny
I'm new here, but I find this topic pretty funny.
Why? Just get an aftermarket barrel for your Glocks in 9x21. That's a 200fps increase for 147grains at SAAMI-spec pressures (same bullet, same barrel length). Keep your factory 9x19 for when you want to plink. Remember, If you like a caliber but want it moving faster, chose a different cartridge.
Double Tap -- 125gn is good for 1400fps in a SAAMI-spec .357 load -- in a 4" barrel. This is with non-Vihtavuori powder though. Vihtavuori has a .357Mag 125gn max load at 1772fps.
Vihtavuori fails to list pressures, but I would bet Double Tap is using N110.
I'm new here, but I find this topic pretty funny.
Why? Just get an aftermarket barrel for your Glocks in 9x21. That's a 200fps increase for 147grains at SAAMI-spec pressures (same bullet, same barrel length). Keep your factory 9x19 for when you want to plink. Remember, If you like a caliber but want it moving faster, chose a different cartridge.
+1 for truth. As for terminal performance, placement is king indeed, but sectional density and metaplat are a factor as well.
Double Tap -- 125gn is good for 1400fps in a SAAMI-spec .357 load -- in a 4" barrel. This is with non-Vihtavuori powder though. Vihtavuori has a .357Mag 125gn max load at 1772fps.
Vihtavuori fails to list pressures, but I would bet Double Tap is using N110.
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SuperRuger "CDW4ME, KyJim, jmr40, arguing with you is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, pretty soon you realize the pig enjoys it. What is a comparison "two things that are used under the same circumstances except for the thing being tested". You can't compare a semi with a 4"barrel to a revolver with a 2.5" barrel, a 9mm hot and a 357 standard".
I don't like having mud thrown at me.
The thread title is power for concealed carry. I didn't get specific on size. If I lay the Glock 19 on top of the Speed Six they are about the same size. Most folks do not carry a 4'' barrel .357 like a GP100 or S&W 686 concealed; I know there are exceptions.
The thead seemed straightforward to me. The 9mm +P and +P+ loadings are comparable in power to the best .357 load if the size of the gun is typical for concealed carry. Against people, the 125 gr. .357 load I selected is considered one of the best. I not only included my chrono results, I referenced Gun Tests where they used similar size revolvers and the 125 gr. Federal load.
I didn't try to have a revolver v. semi-auto thread. I could have compared 2nd shot times between the Glock 19 and the Speed Six, but that would be a waste of ammo.
I also did not include the chrono results from a Ruger SP101 I owned a few years ago since I used 110 gr. ammo in it. But since we have started deviating from the original concept I might as well include it now.
SP101: Winchester 110gr. JHP @ 1,208 fps / 356# KE.
Neither did I include my Taurus 617. It's ported, but what the heck
Taurus 617: Federal 125 gr. .357 magnum JHP @ 1,143 fps / 363# KE.
Did I include only a "small fraction" at first? Yes. I included my data where the .357 was the most powerful.
I don't like having mud thrown at me.
The thread title is power for concealed carry. I didn't get specific on size. If I lay the Glock 19 on top of the Speed Six they are about the same size. Most folks do not carry a 4'' barrel .357 like a GP100 or S&W 686 concealed; I know there are exceptions.
The thead seemed straightforward to me. The 9mm +P and +P+ loadings are comparable in power to the best .357 load if the size of the gun is typical for concealed carry. Against people, the 125 gr. .357 load I selected is considered one of the best. I not only included my chrono results, I referenced Gun Tests where they used similar size revolvers and the 125 gr. Federal load.
I didn't try to have a revolver v. semi-auto thread. I could have compared 2nd shot times between the Glock 19 and the Speed Six, but that would be a waste of ammo.
I also did not include the chrono results from a Ruger SP101 I owned a few years ago since I used 110 gr. ammo in it. But since we have started deviating from the original concept I might as well include it now.
SP101: Winchester 110gr. JHP @ 1,208 fps / 356# KE.
Neither did I include my Taurus 617. It's ported
, but what the heck Taurus 617: Federal 125 gr. .357 magnum JHP @ 1,143 fps / 363# KE.
Did I include only a "small fraction" at first? Yes. I included my data where the .357 was the most powerful.
Regarding the Glock 19,....In the past, I carried a Glock 23 concealed....Not difficult, but I find a 3" SP101 or 2.5" Model 19 much easiear to carry.
My 9mm load of choice is the Ranger +P+ 127gn load. I shoot this in a Beretta 92FS and a Browning HiPower (both of which I have CCW'd).
My own un-scientific phone book tests have the DoubleTap 357mag 125gn Bondedcore penetrating quite a bit further than the Ranger 9mm.
I feel well armed with either load...While I like the 9mm just fine, I really like the versatility of the 357 mag, and find they suit most of my carry needs.
We each make the choices that suit us, and what you carry is fine, for you. But a 9mm is not a 357mag.
My 9mm load of choice is the Ranger +P+ 127gn load. I shoot this in a Beretta 92FS and a Browning HiPower (both of which I have CCW'd).
My own un-scientific phone book tests have the DoubleTap 357mag 125gn Bondedcore penetrating quite a bit further than the Ranger 9mm.
I feel well armed with either load...While I like the 9mm just fine, I really like the versatility of the 357 mag, and find they suit most of my carry needs.
We each make the choices that suit us, and what you carry is fine, for you. But a 9mm is not a 357mag.
sure if you leave out a few details.
I understand that my speed six loaded with 125gr Golden Sabers has no power advantage over my HK p7 loaded with 124gr +p golddots they are also about even in the blast flash and recoil dept. and while in a pure social enviorment I prefer the HK.however you must understand the 9mm is maxed out and the 357 is just getting started in a more rural setting, where both 2 and 4 legged threats exist, I would much prefer my speed six loaded with 158/180gr bullets.
and I wish you'd quit trying to pee on my leg and convince me it's raining.
Even comparing a 3 inch barrel .357 to a 3 inch 9mm, you get similar results. Of course, this doesn't get into velocity loss of a revolver due to cylinder gap. And, if you do start getting into +P 9mm (which is a very common defense load) or +P+ (not so common), you kick it up even more.
But, I really don't see the need to endlessly debate this.
BTW, thanks for the civil discussion.
SuperRuger
New member
If you don't like mud slinging then don't incite it by being rediculous in your loaded tests. Now apparently the number of posts indicates ones inteligence which means if Mr. Linebaugh wanted to join this site, on his first post he is considered an idiot. I also find it amusing that KyJim indicated the major difference in the 2" to 3" barrel and then gave his 9mm comparison the advantage of the 3". Sounds like a democrat trying to get elected. However this has gotten out of hand, INCLUDING ME, so i will leave it at the simple fact that the 9mm is in no way comparable to the 357 in my few posts opinion.
I'll add some additional data, since my choice of ammo wasn't sufficient for some.
Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE
Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE
S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE
Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE
There you have it, different ammo, different bullet weights... same conclusion I started with. I'm glad I kept a few old copies of Gun Tests.
Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE
Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE
S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE
Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE
There you have it, different ammo, different bullet weights... same conclusion I started with. I'm glad I kept a few old copies of Gun Tests.
pythagorean
Moderator
You are using a Glock auto here. I automatically go for the .357 revolver every time.
Every time. Nothing beats the 125 gr SJHP .357 from Remington ammunition to this date. Nothing.
Every time. Nothing beats the 125 gr SJHP .357 from Remington ammunition to this date. Nothing.
Rampant_Colt
New member
hyperbole 101
Nothing?pythagorean said:
Sheikyourbootie
New member
There, fixed it for you. You are cherry picking your ammo choices to support a false conclusion. The 9mm, is not, never has been, and never will be on a par with top end .357 magnum loads with respect to kinetic energy, momentum, and flexibility in terms of bullet weight and style of bullets.
In all fairness, the .357 will never match the 9mm in therms of magazine capacity, and ease of quick reloads.....357 Desert Eagle notwithstanding (weighing in excess of 4# wouldn't count as a concealed weapon and only 9+1 at that)
The Kahr PM9 I carried (until my wife decided she wanted that as her ccw) would spit a 124 grain +p+ round at around 1200fps while my 340PD spits the standard remington R357M1 125gr SJHP at around 1250. (I ended up choosing the 158 grain 38+p Buffalo Bore because I can shoot it faster and I'm more accurate with it than the 125gr sjhp)
For me to take this one isolated situation of my Kahr and my 340PD with these 2 specific ammo choices and saying the 9mm is just as powerful as the .357 in "concealable guns" is patently false and ridiculous.
My 4" service 6 is concealed IWB much of the time, and OWB when I can wear a long shirt untucked....it spits the Buffalo Bore 125 grain at 1590fps.....the Remington R357M1 at 1470 fps. Much more velocity, kinetic energy and momentum than any 9mm. The price I pay for carrying the revolver is WAY fewer rounds, and much slower reloads than the 9mm.
If you want the best of both worlds get the G20 or 29 (if you can conceal it) in 10mm. Now you are talking meeting and sometimes exceeding .357 performance in a semi-auto platform that is high capacity and asswhoopingly powerful.
Sheikyourbootie "You are cherry picking your ammo choices to support a false conclusion. The 9mm, is not, never has been, and never will be on a par with top end .357 magnum loads with respect to kinetic energy, momentum, and flexibility in terms of bullet weight and style of bullets."
I go get several published reports that include various .357 bullet weights by different makers, but I'm "cherry picking" ammo?
I cherry picked the 9mm loads using just +P or +P+ loads, I never claimed regular 9mm loads were in the ballpark. I really do not see why this is causing such confusion / debate .
My results:
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,162 fps = 372# KE
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,182 fps = 394# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,212 fps = 405# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,238 fps = 433# KE
Published test with various ammo:
Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE
Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE
S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE
Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE
Summary: 9mm +P and +P+ loads are equal in power to typical .357 loads fired from compact pistols.
I thought some people might find this data interesting / informative. (Free education)
I go get several published reports that include various .357 bullet weights by different makers, but I'm "cherry picking" ammo?
I cherry picked the 9mm loads using just +P or +P+ loads, I never claimed regular 9mm loads were in the ballpark. I really do not see why this is causing such confusion / debate .
My results:
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,162 fps = 372# KE
Glock 26 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,182 fps = 394# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,212 fps = 405# KE
Glock 19 / Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+ @ 1,238 fps = 433# KE
Published test with various ammo:
Gun Tests Magazine April 1999:
Taurus 617: Federal 180 JHP 1,023 fps / 418# KE
S&W 686: Federal 180 JHP 1,042 fps / 434# KE
Gun Tests Magazine Jan. 2002:
S&W 686: Winchester 110 JHP 1,231 fps / 370# KE
Taurus 617: Winchester 110 JHP 1,206 fps / 356# KE
S&W 686: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,068 fps / 400# KE
Taurus 617: PMC 158 gr. JHP 1,075 fps / 406# KE
Gun Tests Magazine March 2002:
Taurus 617: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,160 fps / 374# KE
S&W 386PD: Black Hills 125 JHP 1,199 fps / 399# KE
S&W 386Sc (3.1'') Black Hills JHP 1,285 fps / 459# KE
Summary: 9mm +P and +P+ loads are equal in power to typical .357 loads fired from compact pistols.
I thought some people might find this data interesting / informative. (Free education
)Sheikyourbootie
New member
Once again, here is the data. Simple math. Consider it free education, if you can learn.
wt M.V. K.E. Momentum
127 1238 431 0.697 (out of the 4" pipe of your G19) (taking your word on this data)
125 1590 701. 0.882 (4" pipe of the Service 6) Chronographed
158 1000 350 0.701 (38+p out of the diminutive 1 7/8" 340pd) Chronographed
You can put all the plus in front of and behind the p you want. 9mm is in the same class as the 38+p
Your best loading in 9mm only has 61% of the kinetic energy of the .357 and 79% of the momentum.
Sorry, but simple math contradicts your "data". A little free education for ya
wt M.V. K.E. Momentum
127 1238 431 0.697 (out of the 4" pipe of your G19) (taking your word on this data)
125 1590 701. 0.882 (4" pipe of the Service 6) Chronographed
158 1000 350 0.701 (38+p out of the diminutive 1 7/8" 340pd) Chronographed
You can put all the plus in front of and behind the p you want. 9mm is in the same class as the 38+p
Your best loading in 9mm only has 61% of the kinetic energy of the .357 and 79% of the momentum.
Sorry, but simple math contradicts your "data". A little free education for ya