redstategunnut
New member
I think people should carry the type of gun and caliber with which they are comfortable, but if you can't solve your problem with a 9mm then you need to learn to shoot better.
9mm v .357 power for Concealed Carry
- Thread starter CDW4ME
- Start date
SuperRuger
New member
CDW4ME you just seem bent on comparing apples to oranges insted of apples to apples. Anyone can compare a special load to a regular load to make their case but stick to a heads up comparison. Seriously?.The average factory 147g 9mm has a velocity of 1010 with an ME of 333 ft/lbs. The average 145g 357 mag has a velocity of 1290 and an ME of 535 ft/lbs. 357 wins. If your going to use a 9mm hot load then use a 357 hot load. Either way the 9mm can't compare to the 357 mag and this isn't really news to anyone. That would be like me comparing a 300g 45 colt to a 300g 454 Casull in my SRH Ruger. No comparison. 
SuperRuger
New member
Heres a good one. What do you call 6 guys armed with 9mm autos versus 1 Bob Mundy with a rusty 45 colt, yep, 6 dead guys. Thought all you semi guys might like that.
Hi everyone,
First off, WELCOME DONNAJ!!! You are officially warmly welcomed!
Second, pertaining to this thread, regardless of the number crunching, velocities, KE..., either one of these loads will put a bad guy on his ass (with the right placement) instantly!!
Its fun to discuss the ballistics and compare loads, but in a real world situation, both of these loads will be extremely effective. In fact, I will go so far as to say the bad guy isnt going to know the difference. Dead is Dead!!!
Personally, I will take a snub .357. Because that is what I have and practice with!! If I had a SC 9mm, I would use and practice with that!!
-George
First off, WELCOME DONNAJ!!! You are officially warmly welcomed!
Second, pertaining to this thread, regardless of the number crunching, velocities, KE..., either one of these loads will put a bad guy on his ass (with the right placement) instantly!!
Its fun to discuss the ballistics and compare loads, but in a real world situation, both of these loads will be extremely effective. In fact, I will go so far as to say the bad guy isnt going to know the difference. Dead is Dead!!!
Personally, I will take a snub .357. Because that is what I have and practice with!! If I had a SC 9mm, I would use and practice with that!!
-George
cougar gt-e "Your point is still taken that if you cripple a .357 with a snubby barrel, it acts like one of the very best a +P+ 9mm loads."
Funny way of putting it, but yes.
katana8869 To me, these are very relevant numbers when making that all important choice of "what should I chose for a CCW?" Comparing say a 2 3/4" SP101 and a Glock 26 (I own both.) What advantages do you get balistically from the short barreled .357 over the 9mm? The answer, not a whole heckuvalot.
When you also take into consideration that the SP101 will have MUCH more muzzle blast/flash, heavier recoil, half the ammo capacity and slower reloads (for most shooters) it pales even further. Reliability between the 2 guns is virtually even, so IMO there really is no point in choosing a short barreled .357 over a 9mm auto.
Now if you want to move the discussion to 4" barrels... there is no contest, ballistics show that the .357 is the clear winner against all but the hottest of the hot 9mm's, but a 4" .357 is not what most would want to carry due to the revolvers size and weight. (Again in my opinion.)
Bingo!
KyJim The point is, however, that if you are an average Joe and are buying typical self-defense loads at a local gunshop or even Walmart, then the 9mm stands up very well to the .357 magnum in the shortest barrel guns
Basically yes. Like your example with Cor-Bon. When the typical .357 is fired from a sub 3'' barrel the 9mm +P from a 4'' barrel is going to be very close.
crghss And you making this point why?
Education.
Revolver barrels are measured differently than autoloaders. Like I said, If I measure my 2 3/4'' barrel Speed Six the way they do an autoloader it would be 4 3/8''. It is fair to compare an autoloader with a 4'' barrel to a revolver with a 2/4'' barrel due to the difference in how they measure.
I didn't chrono Federal 115 +P+ out of the Glocks, but I have with my wife's Kahr P9. I didn't include the Federal load in my initial comparison since it's 115 gr. and the .357 is 125, but here is the result.
Kahr P9 with Federal 115 gr. +P+ 1,272 fps / 413# KE.
Again the 9mm in it's hottest loads fired from a concealable compact pistol equals a typical .357 from a sub 3'' barrel for KE produced.
If people somehow think they are better protected (based on "stopping power" KE) by a snub .357 loaded with 125 gr. bullets than a 9mm with a high performing load it's just not so.
Funny way of putting it, but yes.
katana8869 To me, these are very relevant numbers when making that all important choice of "what should I chose for a CCW?" Comparing say a 2 3/4" SP101 and a Glock 26 (I own both.) What advantages do you get balistically from the short barreled .357 over the 9mm? The answer, not a whole heckuvalot.
When you also take into consideration that the SP101 will have MUCH more muzzle blast/flash, heavier recoil, half the ammo capacity and slower reloads (for most shooters) it pales even further. Reliability between the 2 guns is virtually even, so IMO there really is no point in choosing a short barreled .357 over a 9mm auto.
Now if you want to move the discussion to 4" barrels... there is no contest, ballistics show that the .357 is the clear winner against all but the hottest of the hot 9mm's, but a 4" .357 is not what most would want to carry due to the revolvers size and weight. (Again in my opinion.)
Bingo!
KyJim The point is, however, that if you are an average Joe and are buying typical self-defense loads at a local gunshop or even Walmart, then the 9mm stands up very well to the .357 magnum in the shortest barrel guns
Basically yes. Like your example with Cor-Bon. When the typical .357 is fired from a sub 3'' barrel the 9mm +P from a 4'' barrel is going to be very close.
crghss And you making this point why?
Education.
Revolver barrels are measured differently than autoloaders. Like I said, If I measure my 2 3/4'' barrel Speed Six the way they do an autoloader it would be 4 3/8''. It is fair to compare an autoloader with a 4'' barrel to a revolver with a 2/4'' barrel due to the difference in how they measure.
I didn't chrono Federal 115 +P+ out of the Glocks, but I have with my wife's Kahr P9. I didn't include the Federal load in my initial comparison since it's 115 gr. and the .357 is 125, but here is the result.
Kahr P9 with Federal 115 gr. +P+ 1,272 fps / 413# KE.
Again the 9mm in it's hottest loads fired from a concealable compact pistol equals a typical .357 from a sub 3'' barrel for KE produced.
If people somehow think they are better protected (based on "stopping power" KE) by a snub .357 loaded with 125 gr. bullets than a 9mm with a high performing load it's just not so.
L_Killkenny
New member
Ya know, numbers can be made to look just about any way a person wishes. Look a news polls. They can get the results they want just by asking/phrasing a question a certain way. The 9mm is no .357 in any way, shape or form. In your +P vs standard pressure example I'm sure you numbers don't lie. But if one looks at the big picture instead a very small fraction of it, it becomes obvious that the .357 is the clear power winner.
If you like the 9mm fine. You can enjoy it and shoot it and trust your life to it. But to come to a conclusion with your one small example is at best naive and incomplete. At worst dishonest. Same as many news polls.
LK
If you like the 9mm fine. You can enjoy it and shoot it and trust your life to it. But to come to a conclusion with your one small example is at best naive and incomplete. At worst dishonest. Same as many news polls.
LK
To all in the handgun forum:
The best laid battle plans go to hell after the first shot is fired !!! Prior to determining the knock down power consider the acquisition of your firearm and the muscle memory to bring your arm to fire ready position under extreme conditions. In an emergency everything is instinctive and I'll bet the average would never get a shot off or even get into the ready position. I have shot in many stressful situations and I can tell you I can't remember ever pulling the trigger, the sound of the round or even checking my target. The rule is "If you deploy your firearm your should be ready to destroy your target".. Understanding the complete ballistics for hunting purposes is great planning however for under stress I'm not so sure.
Happy and Safe 4th of July all - America Home of the Brave / Land of the Free
The best laid battle plans go to hell after the first shot is fired !!! Prior to determining the knock down power consider the acquisition of your firearm and the muscle memory to bring your arm to fire ready position under extreme conditions. In an emergency everything is instinctive and I'll bet the average would never get a shot off or even get into the ready position. I have shot in many stressful situations and I can tell you I can't remember ever pulling the trigger, the sound of the round or even checking my target. The rule is "If you deploy your firearm your should be ready to destroy your target".. Understanding the complete ballistics for hunting purposes is great planning however for under stress I'm not so sure.
Happy and Safe 4th of July all - America Home of the Brave / Land of the Free
SuperRuger
New member
I agree with JPINTO. Happy 4th to all here. Here is a good point to remember. It all comes down to our 2nd amendment rights. Without it none of these discussions here will matter,, ballistics, gun choice, which ones are better, etc, etc. Lets keep up the fight for our God givin rights so we can keep the good things like this forum alive as well. Happy 4th to all again and i sincerly hope that all here will fire there guns at some point on this 4th. Just think, if everyone in the US that believes in their rights to own our guns could somehow fire them all at once at the sametime of the day on the 4th, we could send a loud and resounding BOOM to Washington and let them wonder where that firework came from.
Education? Fail to see what I'm supposed to be learning?
It would seem the only lesson is you found a 9mm round that has more energy then a .357 mag round. I bet I can find a .380 round that has more energy then a 9mm round or .40 S&W that has more energy then a 10mm round.
Its like saying lets race my Charger against your Mustang. EXCEPT your Mustang must use a 6 cylinder engine not the 8 cylinder it could come in. Well duh....don't think we need to race now do we.
It would seem the only lesson is you found a 9mm round that has more energy then a .357 mag round. I bet I can find a .380 round that has more energy then a 9mm round or .40 S&W that has more energy then a 10mm round.
Its like saying lets race my Charger against your Mustang. EXCEPT your Mustang must use a 6 cylinder engine not the 8 cylinder it could come in. Well duh....don't think we need to race now do we.
9mm and 357 mag are 2 different tools suited for 2 different jobs. For longer range work where more accuracy and power can be used a long barreled 357 revolver is the best tool for the job.
In a small short barreled revolver all that extra power is a minus. Increased muzzle blast, noise and recoil that will not be any more effective than lighter loads. Most folks who choose to use a revolver will load with hot 38's or lighter 357 loads anyway. The better 9mm loads will be very close in performance and will actually be better than most hot 38 loads.
I would personally take the 9mm over a 357 revolver, but if sane loads are used in the revolver it is a fine option for those who prefer the revolver. Carrying a 2" 357 loaded for "bear" is a mistake in my opinion.
In a small short barreled revolver all that extra power is a minus. Increased muzzle blast, noise and recoil that will not be any more effective than lighter loads. Most folks who choose to use a revolver will load with hot 38's or lighter 357 loads anyway. The better 9mm loads will be very close in performance and will actually be better than most hot 38 loads.
I would personally take the 9mm over a 357 revolver, but if sane loads are used in the revolver it is a fine option for those who prefer the revolver. Carrying a 2" 357 loaded for "bear" is a mistake in my opinion.
SuperRuger
New member
CDW4ME, KyJim, jmr40, arguing with you is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, pretty soon you realize the pig enjoys it. What is a comparison "two things that are used under the same circumstances except for the thing being tested". You can't compare a semi with a 4"barrel to a revolver with a 2.5" barrel, a 9mm hot and a 357 standard. Are you seriously that shallow and hell bent on being right at the cost of appearing totaly clueless and don't hand me that crap about a 4" semi is different than a 4" revolver. Did you begin shooting yesterday. 4" of bullet travel is 4" of bullet travel is 4" of bullet travel. People like you are hilarious and it is entertaining for the rest of us to read what you post but after a certin point in the words of Will Smith,"Damn". Your not even comparing apples to oranges anymore. Your comparing apples to pineapples,coconuts, and honey dew mellons. Boy i hope that makes you feel better.
orionengnr
New member
We are talking carry handguns here, guys.
As much as I love my K and N-frames, I can only carry one in the winter, when a carry garment is part of the equation.
The rest of the year (and in Texas, that is a large portion of the year), the j-frame in .357 and the Kahr PM9 are comparable in size and weight. This is where this comparison becomes valid.
I have owned and shot a bunch of rounds through each. A Scandium .357 is very unpleasant to shoot...and that is an understatement. My PM9 uses that Ranger +p+ load, so I have some experience with it. A bit snappy, but controllable and powerful..and it carries 6+1, and reloads quickly.
Bottom line for me...the PM9 with that round is the winner. I no longer own a j-frame, and at one point I owned six.
I still carry those revolvers (sometimes) during our oh-so-brief winter. Great revolvers, great rounds, fun to shoot and I shoot them pretty well.
But for me, a 4" K or N-frame is not a practical year-round carry gun, and the j-frame in .357 only works in theory. The PM9 works in the real world, and that load puts it into the "serious" category.
As much as I love my K and N-frames, I can only carry one in the winter, when a carry garment is part of the equation.
The rest of the year (and in Texas, that is a large portion of the year), the j-frame in .357 and the Kahr PM9 are comparable in size and weight. This is where this comparison becomes valid.
I have owned and shot a bunch of rounds through each. A Scandium .357 is very unpleasant to shoot...and that is an understatement. My PM9 uses that Ranger +p+ load, so I have some experience with it. A bit snappy, but controllable and powerful..and it carries 6+1, and reloads quickly.
Bottom line for me...the PM9 with that round is the winner. I no longer own a j-frame, and at one point I owned six.
I still carry those revolvers (sometimes) during our oh-so-brief winter. Great revolvers, great rounds, fun to shoot and I shoot them pretty well.
But for me, a 4" K or N-frame is not a practical year-round carry gun, and the j-frame in .357 only works in theory. The PM9 works in the real world, and that load puts it into the "serious" category.
Last edited:
SuperRuger,
Take a chill pill dude. I never said the 9mm was equal to any 357, regardless of barrel length. The point I'm trying to make is that raw power in only 1 consideration. The 357 will always be faster and more powerful. It is just that the excess power is detrimental to performance after a certain point. An accurate, shootable weapon is far more important than raw power.
Dead is dead. At the end of the day the better 9mm rounds work just as well as any handgun round.
Kinda like arguing that your car is sooo much better than mine because yours will go 130 mph and mine will only do 100. While we drive on a road with a 70 mph speed limit. We will still arrive at the same place at the same time.
Take a chill pill dude. I never said the 9mm was equal to any 357, regardless of barrel length. The point I'm trying to make is that raw power in only 1 consideration. The 357 will always be faster and more powerful. It is just that the excess power is detrimental to performance after a certain point. An accurate, shootable weapon is far more important than raw power.
Dead is dead. At the end of the day the better 9mm rounds work just as well as any handgun round.
Kinda like arguing that your car is sooo much better than mine because yours will go 130 mph and mine will only do 100. While we drive on a road with a 70 mph speed limit. We will still arrive at the same place at the same time.
SuperRuger
New member
Carry guns?. I guess the SP101 is not a carry gun huh, even though thats what it was designed for. The SP101 in 3" vs. the Beretta PX4 3" which is a fair comparison, your saying that the Beretta will out perform it ballisticaly. Then you don't know as much as you think. Both comparable carry guns. Both 3" even though i will give you the Beretta probably weighs less, unless you are a midget and that little difference makes a difference. This is interesting being you just said that straight up the 357 wins. So therfore in this straight up comparison i guess you just made the argument for us. Why can't you just admit you have gone to the dark side and are a semi man and i am a revolver man. Simple as that. I am glad i am on the winning side. May the force be with you, the 357 force that is.
Last edited:
orionengnr
New member
No, the SP101 is not a comparable carry gun.
The SP101 is a 25-27 oz IWB/OWB gun. It matches up well with a G19 with a spare mag (five rounds vice...ahh... 30). That is an apples to oranges comparison.
The PM9 and the S&W 340 are lightweight, pocket pistols and an apples to apples comparison. Two sub compact, pocket pistols of equivalent size and weight.
The SP101 is a 25-27 oz IWB/OWB gun. It matches up well with a G19 with a spare mag (five rounds vice...ahh... 30). That is an apples to oranges comparison.
The PM9 and the S&W 340 are lightweight, pocket pistols and an apples to apples comparison. Two sub compact, pocket pistols of equivalent size and weight.
SuperRuger,
Sir, you are relatively new here to the forum and with a low post count. We generally don't call people names directly or indirectly like comparing people to pigs and calling them shallow and hilarious. It's rude and it really cuts into whatever credibility you have.
In addition, you have also seriously misrepresented what I wrote. You said: "You can't compare a semi with a 4"barrel to a revolver with a 2.5" barrel, a 9mm hot and a 357 standard."
I have never done so. I compared a 3 inch 9mm with a 2 inch .357 and that is ALL I compared. Go back and read my post (#12). I pointed out how much of a velocity jump there was from a two inch to three inch barrel in a .357 (about 200 fps). Comparing a 3 inch 9mm and a 2 inch .357 is the limit to where a typical 9mm self-defense load (not a hot load) compares with a typical .357 self-defense load. In case you missed it, go back and re-read the numbers. Here is one example from www.ballisticsbytheinch.com:
.357 magnum (2 in barrel) -- 125 gr. Federal JHP -- 949 fps
9mm (3 in barrel) -- 124 gr Federal HydraShock -- 988 fps
Comparing these barrel lengths is absolutely valid because of the way they are measured and they are typical lengths used for subcompact models of each.
Post 17, I said, "But nobody is saying the 9mm is a better round. Just that in one specific, narrow circumstance, it's there with .357 magnum."
Do you have any real facts to dispute this point or can you only resort to name calling?
Sir, you are relatively new here to the forum and with a low post count. We generally don't call people names directly or indirectly like comparing people to pigs and calling them shallow and hilarious. It's rude and it really cuts into whatever credibility you have.
In addition, you have also seriously misrepresented what I wrote. You said: "You can't compare a semi with a 4"barrel to a revolver with a 2.5" barrel, a 9mm hot and a 357 standard."
I have never done so. I compared a 3 inch 9mm with a 2 inch .357 and that is ALL I compared. Go back and read my post (#12). I pointed out how much of a velocity jump there was from a two inch to three inch barrel in a .357 (about 200 fps). Comparing a 3 inch 9mm and a 2 inch .357 is the limit to where a typical 9mm self-defense load (not a hot load) compares with a typical .357 self-defense load. In case you missed it, go back and re-read the numbers. Here is one example from www.ballisticsbytheinch.com:
.357 magnum (2 in barrel) -- 125 gr. Federal JHP -- 949 fps
9mm (3 in barrel) -- 124 gr Federal HydraShock -- 988 fps
Comparing these barrel lengths is absolutely valid because of the way they are measured and they are typical lengths used for subcompact models of each.
Post 17, I said, "But nobody is saying the 9mm is a better round. Just that in one specific, narrow circumstance, it's there with .357 magnum."
Do you have any real facts to dispute this point or can you only resort to name calling?