9mm, 40 s&w, 45 acp shot to shot recovery test

well, a 230 grain 45 is still twice the weight of a 115 grain 9mm. But that's besides the point. You say that people have lived because of fractions of an inch. You say that people have died because of fractions of a second. True BUT, Which fraction of an inch? Bullets of all calibers hit exactly where they are aimed and still miss a kill by a fraction. It doesn't really have anything to do with accuracy of the shooter. Hell, being off by that fraction of aim point might actually be the fraction that makes the shot a stopper. You don't know.

The fraction of a second that ends with you dead is going to leave you dead even if you get that extra fraction for the follow up. 9mm or a heavier caliber, the follow up difference won't get you. It's the first shot that gets you hurt if it's a little late. Unless of course your first shot misses. If that's the case, then you have a point.
 
DA/SA Fan said:
well, a 230 grain 45 is still twice the weight of a 115 grain 9mm. But that's besides the point. You say that people have lived because of fractions of an inch. You say that people have died because of fractions of a second. True BUT, Which fraction of an inch? Bullets of all calibers hit exactly where they are aimed and still miss a kill by a fraction. It doesn't really have anything to do with accuracy of the shooter. Hell, being off by that fraction of aim point might actually be the fraction that makes the shot a stopper. You don't know.

The fraction of a second that ends with you dead is going to leave you dead even if you get that extra fraction for the follow up. 9mm or a heavier caliber, the follow up difference won't get you. It's the first shot that gets you hurt if it's a little late. Unless of course your first shot misses. If that's the case, then you have a point.
Click to expand...

Actually I never said people have lived and died by fractions of inches and seconds, though I would agree. I fail to see where anything I said doesn't have to do with the accuracy of the shooter. If the shooter doesn't get the gun on target it is all for moot. That is the most fundamental factor of course, I am just arguing that some shooters might find accuracy easier or faster with different calibers.

I have to disagree with your argument about time. From your argument it would seem you are saying that the only shot that matters is the first. No doubt the first shot is critical, but many fights (in fact most going by the rule of 3s) go beyond one shot. The ability to make quick and accurate follow up shots is also critical. Law enforcement is trained to shoot until the threat stops. If that is one shot great, but you always need to be prepared for the fight to go longer.

There is no one singular factor that is the end all and be all of defensive pistol shooting. It is a combination of factors that aren't independent but interact with each other.
 
Sorry. That was Dragline's argument.

I just can't see how anyone can believe that a follow up shot that needs to be gauged by a shot timer or a group that's 2 inches rather than 1 1/2 is going to be any advantage in a real life situation.
 
Last edited:
With your beloved, faster shooting with better accuracy 9MM!
St. Louis police carry Beretta 92 9MM pistols. Which they have been begging to be replaced with 40S&W for several years!
Click to expand...

Supposedly the PoPo got off 17 shots for the BG's 3 and hit 7-8 times. I'm not seeing what poin t you're trying to prove. He was able to empty his mag with a 41% to 47% hit rate in the same time the BG missed with all 3 of his. In the same situation, I'd take that six ways to Sunday.
 
I just can't see how anyone can believe that a follow up shot that needs to be gauged by a shot timer or a group that's 2 inches rather than 1 1/2 is going to be any advantage in a real life situation.
Click to expand...

Shot timers measure seconds and fractions of seconds. Even 0.5 seconds out of a 3 second long encounter isn't something I think is negligible. As for 2 in. vs. 1.5 in., again whether or not the difference is that small will depend on the shooter. Taking a class where we did timed draws from the holster to shots on single and multiple targets was very eye opening for me personally.

Lastly, if you don't believe that personally that's your call. Shot speed, ease of accuracy, and of course capacity are merely some of the reasons why almost all trainers at the major schools use 9mm. Scroll down here to see the table:
http://www.thebangswitch.com/the-fading-40/

We're all free to do what we want, I'm just trying to explain one side of the argument. I'm not here to say the 40SW or the 45ACP suck, I don't think they do. I just believe there is an argument to be made for the 9mm, as I am sure someone could make for the other calibers too.
 
The test in the original post is not valid IMO, they need to be done on the same platform to hold any weight. I say we give Jerry Miculek an email and have him test the 3 calibers on the same platform. He seems to be consistent enough to give a better comparison.

There's a measurable difference in recoil between the 3 calibers with common SD loads, if you compare equal platforms. Lighter platforms will be plagued worse by harder recoiling cartridges.

IIRC in a 1lb pistol there's roughly ~5ft-lbs difference in free recoil energy between .40S&W (155 grain) and 9mm (124 grain) loads.

That's roughly the difference between a .30-30 (160 grain @ 2400) and a .308 win (165 @ 2700) in a 7.5lb rifle...
 
There's a measurable difference in recoil between the 3 calibers with common SD loads, if you compare equal platforms. Lighter platforms will be plagued worse by harder recoiling cartridges.
Click to expand...

I don't think there's any argument that there are differences in recoil. The point that was being made was that the rise due to recoil was not THAT MUCH different -- and that the shooter's response (expectations, experience, technique, etc.) may play a bigger role in the different outcomes than just the caliber being fired.
 
I just believe there is an argument to be made for the 9mm, as I am sure someone could make for the other calibers too.
Click to expand...

My post was not designed or posted to be another caliber argument.

Many have missed the point, but that is Ok. This was not about competition either, but how to survive on the streets with a gun that fits you. I was undefeated for years in Martial arts, but in the gym some would say do this or do that, as they looked wonderful in the gym, but against folks who hit back they folded like a lawn chair in a hurricane. I assure you and I know from experience, some competitive shooters fold as well and I Love competitors. I was in three World Police and Fire Games and was lucky as hell and earned quite a few medals in PPC, Police action, 50 meter small bore, high power Palma rifle etc, but, in no way did I ever consider the competition the same as a back alley with who knows who. I patrolled in an area with multiple military bases, special forces, war vets, and others who knew the real deal in life and death and they know how to shoot back. No race guns, no timers, poor light and unknown number of bad guys, not a game, and no do-overs if you miss.

The point was a simple concept and most of you got it, whew!!!:)
 
Last edited:
My post was not designed or posted to be another caliber argument.
Click to expand...

I never thought it was. But sometimes people other than the OP respond to a thread and sometimes the thread can move in different directions. Given that you stated this in the first post:

I read a lot of complaints about how the 9mm us better because it recovers faster when firing under shootout conditions, is this true? I took out my Canik TP9, HK USP compact 40, and XD 45 ACP to see on film how much it actually was in the real world.
Click to expand...

I'm not overly surprised that debates about calibers started, especially given how you made particular note of the 9mm and its recovery time. Your argument would seem to be that in "shootout conditions" a competent shooter can use any caliber well. I get that, but that doesn't mean I and other members don't also have our own views on the matter too.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the thread and the video WildBill. TunnelRat. Thanks for the discussion. I shoot mostly 9mm myself. Love the caliber. I also occasionally have a 9x18 or a 32 in my car and don't feel lacking. If this was about which caliber is best, you make some good points but I think the video (different platforms notwithstanding) tells the story as I see it. It all has to do with skill level. If you're damn good with a 9mm and nearly as good with a 10mm, you can choose whatever caliber suits your fancy. If you can shoot a 9mm great but can't hit the broadside of a barn with a heavier caliber your choices are more limited. I'm sure instructors use 9mm more often because the people they are teaching are at the beginning of their learning process. Not everyone will get to a level of proficiency like WildBill, but some will. At that point caliber isn't a determining factor. Thanks again for the chat!
 
If you can shoot a 9mm great but can't hit the broadside of a barn with a heavier caliber your choices are more limited.
Click to expand...

I don't believe I ever stated something similar to this, nor can I imagine a situation where this is the case. It seems to be hyperbole for the sake of it.

I'm sure instructors use 9mm more often because the people they are teaching are at the beginning of their learning process.
Click to expand...

Those are the calibers the instructors themselves use and carry, not only what they use for their classes. Students bring their own pistols and ammunition to classes, they don't typically shoot an instructor's gun. If a student's gun goes down there are typically loaner pistols. I can see your point about using similar to your students, but these folks also take defensive shooting pretty seriously and I can't seem them training with a caliber other than their primary caliber just to be convenient for others. Class time for the students is additional trigger time for the instructors.

Not everyone will get to a level of proficiency like WildBill, but some will. At that point caliber isn't a determining factor.
Click to expand...

This and Bill's comment make me worry I at some point made it seem like I was insulting Bill's level of skill. I can't see where I did that, nor was it ever my intent, though I apologize if I did so. Most of the people on that list, Travis Haley, Chris Costa, Massad Ayoob, Larry Vickers aren't what I would call deficient in skill. A number of them have pretty well documented military careers and saw some hard combat, many others are experienced law enforcement with years on the street, not a desk. Yet despite caliber likely not being a limiting factor for them, they still choose 9mm. I wouldn't accept the argument that 9mm is somehow a beginner's caliber that only the unskilled use.

Again I have nothing against the 40SW or 45ACP and I understand Bill's argument in this video. But given his stated goal of seeing if recovery time was notably worse than 9mm, I think some talk about why that impression of 9mm came about is reasonable.
 
Last edited:
I was insulting Bill's level of skill
Click to expand...

No my friend I did not take anything you said personally or negative comments towards the subject matter. Just good back and forth views to show all sides. This is what makes the forum informative, as I am old enough to know I do not know what I do not know so I will learn as I go...
 
No my friend I did not take anything you said personally or negative comments towards the subject matter. Just good back and forth views to show all sides. This is what makes the forum informative, as I am old enough to know I do not know what I do not know so I will learn as I go...
Click to expand...

I really appreciate you sharing your experience with the forum and giving us new topics of discussion. As a young guy I realize I have a lot to learn and this forum can be a great resource.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top