zincwarrior
New member
i found 'em pretty meh myself. All those whiskers...
9mm, 40 s&w, 45 acp shot to shot recovery test
- Thread starter WildBill45
- Start date
i found 'em pretty meh myself. All those whiskers...
I think LockedBreach nailed it, the platform will have as much effect as the caliber would. But here's another interesting observation (based on opinion of course 
), even the same platform could have issues. I have a Cougar in both 9mm and .40sw. I'd swear the Cougar shoots the .40 nicer than it does the 9mm. Nicest shooting .40 I've shot. So even in the same platform the results could be skewed just based on what the gun shoots best.
), even the same platform could have issues. I have a Cougar in both 9mm and .40sw. I'd swear the Cougar shoots the .40 nicer than it does the 9mm. Nicest shooting .40 I've shot. So even in the same platform the results could be skewed just based on what the gun shoots best.
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WildBill45
New member
No worries, missing is not part of my portfolio, trust me!
I will shot nails through a board with all three aforementioned guns the next time...
Dragline45
New member
WildBill45 said:
Carpentry just got a whole lot more fun.
LockedBreech
New member
pgdion said:
You know, this is absolutely true for some reason. My friend has the Stoeger Cougar (same gun, different roll mark) in 9mm, and I have the Beretta Cougar in .40 S&W. I have about 400 rounds through his Cougar and about 200 through my Cougar, and the .40 is softer shooting, or at the very least no harder shooting.
My PX4, which is the evolution of the Cougar design, was my first handgun, and may explain my affinity for .40 S&W. I have shot service-sized 9mm pistols that recoiled appreciably harder. Even my 92FS, which is noted for having soft recoil even for a 9mm, is barely softer than the PX4 in .40.
Another platform that does a remarkable job with the .40 is the Sig P229. Feels like a typical 9mm.
Seems like there are two camps here. Those that are worried that fractions of a second and fractions of an inch are important, and those that think that in a SD situation those small differences are insignificant. There are differences in the speed and accuracy over caliber and platforms but I am of the opinion that unless you are a competition shooter the difference isn't worth a second thought. Good is good enough.
I'm of the opinion that this mentality is dead wrong. The rule of 3s by FBI statistics is the average shooting involves 3 shots in 3 seconds from 3 yards. Drawing from concealment and getting effective hits in 3 seconds isn't as easy as it sounds. For a trained shooter it's doable, for someone inexperienced it can be surprisingly hard. I'm of no illusion that a self defense encounter will be a "high stakes at noon" type shootout, but everything you can do to give yourself an advantage time and accuracy wise is worth it, IMO. We also know accuracy goes to heck in a fight, with estimates being 17-30% that of normal. We just had a shooting in the news where an off duty officer needed 17 shots to stop an assailant. Maybe the officer was a poor shot, maybe not. For me I'll take all the starting accuracy and speed I can get.
WildBill45
New member
game changer
We are awaiting my fiancee's first 9mm, the Walther CCP, which is a game changer if it works as advertised. The recoil reduction would make it easier to control and recover from recoil and back on target ... in theory at least at this time...
So you would have a standard Walther and the CCP side by side, and the CCP may be easier all around ... again in theory at the moment.
We are awaiting my fiancee's first 9mm, the Walther CCP, which is a game changer if it works as advertised. The recoil reduction would make it easier to control and recover from recoil and back on target ... in theory at least at this time...
So you would have a standard Walther and the CCP side by side, and the CCP may be easier all around ... again in theory at the moment.
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Cheapshooter
New member
The average, not the shootings where the shooter was well trained, and infatuated with pinpoint accuracy, and micro seconds of increased speed.
BINGO!
With your beloved, faster shooting with better accuracy 9MM!
St. Louis police carry Beretta 92 9MM pistols. Which they have been begging to be replaced with 40S&W for several years!
Not sure I'd consider myself infatuated nor for me is it microseconds of increased speed (I don't think my shot timer measures microseconds).
I think beloved is a stretch, but I fail to see how that disproves the 9mm. I imagine your argument might be if he'd had a different caliber the fight would have been over faster. My counter would be if he didn't hit a vital area it didn't matter either way, so he's lucky he had the capacity of 17 rds of 9mm (something he wouldn't have had with 40SW or 45ACP).
Walt Sherrill
New member
I've come to believe that success in self-defense shooting is like success in selling real estate: it's all about LOCATION -- or, in shooting terms, SHOT PLACEMENT.
The key focus in any shootout is GETTING THE OTHER GUY TO STOP before he gets you to stop.
With handguns, that means doing your best to hit the other guy's CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM. (Shots to the heart will sometimes do it, but it's often slower.) Aiming for the opponents central mass gives you a chance to hit both areas. Even when he or she is hit with multiple .45 rounds, a determined opponent who is fatally wounded or bleeding out can still kill you. And there's always a chance that the Bad Guy may have worn a vest...
In the previously-mentioned 17-round shooting, it would appear that maybe only the last of those 17 rounds hit a vital CNS location (if then). There's little reason to assume that the same person shooting a .40 or .45 would have done a lot better, and may have ended up 7-10 rounds short!!
The key focus in any shootout is GETTING THE OTHER GUY TO STOP before he gets you to stop.
With handguns, that means doing your best to hit the other guy's CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM. (Shots to the heart will sometimes do it, but it's often slower.) Aiming for the opponents central mass gives you a chance to hit both areas. Even when he or she is hit with multiple .45 rounds, a determined opponent who is fatally wounded or bleeding out can still kill you. And there's always a chance that the Bad Guy may have worn a vest...
In the previously-mentioned 17-round shooting, it would appear that maybe only the last of those 17 rounds hit a vital CNS location (if then). There's little reason to assume that the same person shooting a .40 or .45 would have done a lot better, and may have ended up 7-10 rounds short!!
Dragline45
New member
What the police want and desire should never be an indication of what is best. In many cases LEO's have been some of the most firearm ignorant people I have met.
Dragline45
New member
The thing is you don't know, so all the doubt in the world doesn't mean a thing. People have lived after getting shot because the bullet was fractions of an inch away from their heart or an artery, it works the other way around too. People have been killed because they were a fraction of a second too slow. When it comes down to it, if one caliber allows me to shoot faster and with more accuracy while still being a viable choice for a SD round, that sounds damn good to me.
If pinpoint accuracy and fractions of a second are that important why aren't you advocating a PM30 for SD? Faster follow ups and easier to get on target than even a 9mm. If the fraction of an inch that keeps a bad guy fighting is a factor you should be able to close that mythical gap with a 22 magnum. Heck, you even have 30 round to do it with!
I figured we'd get to the "why not a 22" argument eventually. The question becomes can the caliber in question still penetrate the required depth within a human torso or skull and after penetrating that depth deliver enough damage to the vital organ or nerve to render incapacitation. Now out of a pistol I have doubts that a 22 LR can do this on a torso shot as it's likely not developing the velocity it needs. 22 WMR is an interesting idea in that it might very well be able to do so (I think MAC did some tests recently with this versus 5.7mm). However we're talking about a what, 40 gr projectile versus say a 124 gr projectile in 9mm. Again, just penetrating to the required depth isn't enough, it still has to damage the organ or nerve sufficiently. The 9mm bullet is over 3 times the mass of the 22 WMR bullet. Now the 40SW and 45ACP are larger bullets you might say, but we aren't talking about as dramatic of a difference in size. I'd argue there's a minimum size bullet needed to do sufficient damage, and from ballistic tests in the past 9mm seems to be about that size and those tests have shown that 40SW and 45 ACP don't seem to be dramatically better. Of course that is something that will always be debated. There is also the fact that 22 WMR is rimfire, and its reliability vs. a centerfire cartridge can be another debate.
Now we could all just go for head shots of course, any maybe that was your argument. I don't think folks are really arguing for "pinpoint" accuracy. A headshot might be needed in the end, but most folks will do an upper thorax shot first because it's a much bigger target and your accuracy under adrenaline has probably gone to hell. For the average shooter he/she can likely shoot 9mm faster than 40SW or 45ACP while maintaining the same degree of accuracy (especially given the size and experience of the shooter). Assuming the other person is shooting back, that speed can matter. The additional firepower, as you mentioned, is another added bonus.
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