Delaware_Dan
New member
How about driving? Aside from it being VERY uncomfortable, what if you get rear ended? Spinal injury big time. Carry what's ideal for you, but consider the cons offered here.
6-o-clock Carry, input?
- Thread starter Tucker 1371
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MOB Twist carry
Aside from the unusual number of smart aleck rejoinders I can't help but wonder how many of the armchair experts have ever carried that way for an extended period of time. I just retired from public safety after 39 years. Across those years I have carried personally owned and issued firearms of many types. When I went through a several year love affair with a 1911 and a Combat Commander my favortie method of carry was MOB with the grip facing to the right. A custom holster maker made some very nice holsters for that carry called the "MOB Twist" and they were outstanding. Revolvers won't carry well that way and Glocks and other similar action pistols would be downright scary to carry so. Also I don't like the cocked and locked manner of carry for 1911 styles carried so. It is very comfortable for a flat handgun and I never fell on my backside and injured my spine that way. Odds of that are about the same as being hit by a 747 landing on an Interstate. At no time in my career did I ever encounter another officer or department who proscribed carrying handcuffs in the MOB. There's only so much room on a Sam Browne and it is used efficiently. I have seen departments who mandated positions for an Officer's gear on a duty belt but that was for reasons of uniformity, not safety. I realize that when I was a younger pup you could get the best of Safariland or Bianchi at a very fair price at every uni shop or cop shop. These days you have to about take out a bank loan to get the good stuff. There's a custom maker in Alachua, Florida that I have ordered from and I have gotten outstanding holsters from him.
I have seen a signature of here ascribing to a Texas Ranger the statement that he wouldn't carry the SOB if it wasn't dangerous when someone challenged him for carrying cocked and locked. That is good word. They're guns folks...They are dangerous and no method of carry is foolproof but I believe that opinion-givers should know whereof they speak and not from just reading about it and deciding it ain't smart. Another thought I have concerns having someone "take your weapon away from you because your arm is in an akward position". When my department first issued Beretta 96D Centurions one of the officers had read an article about how easy it was for a BG to strip the slide from a Beretta while you "had 'em covered" and he decided Berettas weren't safe. My strong feeling about that is that a weapon isn't some silly little bluff device. If it's out of your holster and in your hand you should be prepared to use it. Legally, ethically and morally. Same thing goes for letting some moron get close enough to you before you draw to disarm you.
Aside from the unusual number of smart aleck rejoinders I can't help but wonder how many of the armchair experts have ever carried that way for an extended period of time. I just retired from public safety after 39 years. Across those years I have carried personally owned and issued firearms of many types. When I went through a several year love affair with a 1911 and a Combat Commander my favortie method of carry was MOB with the grip facing to the right. A custom holster maker made some very nice holsters for that carry called the "MOB Twist" and they were outstanding. Revolvers won't carry well that way and Glocks and other similar action pistols would be downright scary to carry so. Also I don't like the cocked and locked manner of carry for 1911 styles carried so. It is very comfortable for a flat handgun and I never fell on my backside and injured my spine that way. Odds of that are about the same as being hit by a 747 landing on an Interstate. At no time in my career did I ever encounter another officer or department who proscribed carrying handcuffs in the MOB. There's only so much room on a Sam Browne and it is used efficiently. I have seen departments who mandated positions for an Officer's gear on a duty belt but that was for reasons of uniformity, not safety. I realize that when I was a younger pup you could get the best of Safariland or Bianchi at a very fair price at every uni shop or cop shop. These days you have to about take out a bank loan to get the good stuff. There's a custom maker in Alachua, Florida that I have ordered from and I have gotten outstanding holsters from him.
I have seen a signature of here ascribing to a Texas Ranger the statement that he wouldn't carry the SOB if it wasn't dangerous when someone challenged him for carrying cocked and locked. That is good word. They're guns folks...They are dangerous and no method of carry is foolproof but I believe that opinion-givers should know whereof they speak and not from just reading about it and deciding it ain't smart. Another thought I have concerns having someone "take your weapon away from you because your arm is in an akward position". When my department first issued Beretta 96D Centurions one of the officers had read an article about how easy it was for a BG to strip the slide from a Beretta while you "had 'em covered" and he decided Berettas weren't safe. My strong feeling about that is that a weapon isn't some silly little bluff device. If it's out of your holster and in your hand you should be prepared to use it. Legally, ethically and morally. Same thing goes for letting some moron get close enough to you before you draw to disarm you.
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Scubasimmons
New member
Sorry, but an ignorant question...people keep suggesting lower vertebrae injury with carry at the 6o'clock position. Has anyone ever actually had this happen? This coming from someone who had had lower lumbar surgery so I am familiar with it's sensitivities and I don't see this being an issue. As far as having an injury in car accident the gun at 6 o'clock (if it's still there) is the least if your worries sitting in a padded car seat.
...which are probably the same odds that most of us will ever need a gun for self-protection. That said, the gun is a means of reducing risk. The last thing I want to do is add an element of risk, no matter how remote, back into the equation.
There are some differences there. First off, the weapon has already been presented. Second, the person trying such a thing would likely find themselves shot before they got a chance to do so.
If it works for you, by all means go for it. Just understand the potential risks, and weigh them against whatever convenience the 6:00 position may offer.
Tucker 1371
New member
Thanks for the input yall,
The two biggest things I'm concerned about are my shirt slipping over my gun when I bend over (it's fine when I sit down) and sweeping my midsection as I draw. For the first one I guess I'll just have to be mindful of it or wear jackets. For the other I've been practicing drawing while flicking off the safety only after the muzzle has cleared my body. Given enough time hopefully that will become muscle memory.
The two biggest things I'm concerned about are my shirt slipping over my gun when I bend over (it's fine when I sit down) and sweeping my midsection as I draw. For the first one I guess I'll just have to be mindful of it or wear jackets. For the other I've been practicing drawing while flicking off the safety only after the muzzle has cleared my body. Given enough time hopefully that will become muscle memory.
Pushed into a wall...
crghss said,
I don't mean this in a jerk kind of way, but being thrown against a wall isn't that big a deal tactically, in the immediate term, as long as a) you don't smack your head too hard and b) you keep your balance. Then again, I can tell you first-hand about c) which is damaging a lumbar disk by getting knocked into a wall - but on the bright side, the disk actually swelling tends to happen several hours after the fact... Sciatica isn't fun; by comparison, it makes back surgery seem pretty tame. Again, first-hand...
But anyway, back against a wall can allow some very interesting takedowns. crghss, you are in south florida - there's an ASU aikido affiliate dojo in Boca; you should ask them to show you some defensive moves from the position of being jacked back into the wall.
But whether your back is against a wall, a barber's chair, a restaurant chair, or a car seat, SOB does not give good odds of a clean draw. 3:30 - 4:30 (or mirror image for lefties) with a forward cant will allow for a draw from a seated position, and also for those times when your back is literally against the wall.
And unlike SOB, the 3:30 - 4:30 forward canted position doesn't add a force multiplying effect to the wall impact against your spine. (Note: I didn't have a gun on when I got hurt; stupid racquetball doubles game...)
crghss said,
I don't mean this in a jerk kind of way, but being thrown against a wall isn't that big a deal tactically, in the immediate term, as long as a) you don't smack your head too hard and b) you keep your balance. Then again, I can tell you first-hand about c) which is damaging a lumbar disk by getting knocked into a wall - but on the bright side, the disk actually swelling tends to happen several hours after the fact... Sciatica isn't fun; by comparison, it makes back surgery seem pretty tame. Again, first-hand...
But anyway, back against a wall can allow some very interesting takedowns. crghss, you are in south florida - there's an ASU aikido affiliate dojo in Boca; you should ask them to show you some defensive moves from the position of being jacked back into the wall.
But whether your back is against a wall, a barber's chair, a restaurant chair, or a car seat, SOB does not give good odds of a clean draw. 3:30 - 4:30 (or mirror image for lefties) with a forward cant will allow for a draw from a seated position, and also for those times when your back is literally against the wall.
And unlike SOB, the 3:30 - 4:30 forward canted position doesn't add a force multiplying effect to the wall impact against your spine. (Note: I didn't have a gun on when I got hurt; stupid racquetball doubles game...)
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It will happen. In terms of perception, a bulge on the sides of the waistband can be anything. I'm very indifferent about concealment, but I've never been spotted (except by a hugging relative) in almost two decades of carrying. For all an observer knows, that's a cell phone, tape measure, or whatever else folks have on their belt.
If concealment is an issue, a bulge in the small of the back usually means one thing: gun. It also raises suspicions as to the intent of the person carrying that way. I've noticed a tendency for the clothing to bunch up around the grip more readily from that position as well.
It may be possible to work around all that, but I don't see what the position offers that another would not.
I know 6pm might be bad for the back, but what about 5.00 -5.30 thats not inline with the spine, but would place the gun a bit close to your hands. Tho it will have the same bulge and bending over issues that SOB will have..
Tho i wonder if it is much better or worse then SOB.
Tho i wonder if it is much better or worse then SOB.
Bill DeShivs
New member
What is funny about someone experienced sharing their experience with you?
Back injuries are nothing funny, nor is not being able to get to your gun.
Back injuries are nothing funny, nor is not being able to get to your gun.
Tucker 1371
New member
Well yes, I did want to know if other people actually carried this way if that's what you're getting at. I've tried other methods and they just don't conceal well enough for my liking. I wear somewhat tight shirts, I'm not going to go out and buy a ton of new shirts just because I started carrying. I really haven't even gotten comfortable to where I carry much outside of the car yet, I will though. This way, to me, is both comfortable and conceals well. I figure I'll get better on the draw with practice.
As for getting pushed up against a wall I'm not worried. I was, if I don't say so myself, a dang good wrestler in high school and moved on to jiu jitsu and MMA in college, I still practice on a weekly basis. If I decide to let someone get that close I have little doubt that I can at least create enough space to draw my gun and at most severely injure them without ever drawing it.
crghss...
... I never did see what your personal attack was, so I'll ignore it.
But here's an offer... and it's extended to anybody who's likely to be in the north Georgia area in late November (I'll be home from Afghanistan after Thanksgiving).
If interested, we can get some space in my buddy's training room, and grab some training weapons. I'll let you back me into a wall; I'll even let you get a choke hold, or let you lock a hand or both hands on my gun wrist. I'll put the gun in my normal carry position.
If you want, put on some MA gloves, and I'll even let you strike if you feel up to it.
But I'd lay pretty good odds that I can complete the draw, regardless, and put simulated rounds in you.
I'll even teach you how to do it.
If interested, we can coordinate via a TFL staffer friend of mine.
Cheers,
M
PS GSUEagle1089, you're not too far away (preferred range and dojo are Marietta area), so you are welcome to come try this with a training weapon from the 6 position if you want.
... I never did see what your personal attack was, so I'll ignore it.
But here's an offer... and it's extended to anybody who's likely to be in the north Georgia area in late November (I'll be home from Afghanistan after Thanksgiving).
If interested, we can get some space in my buddy's training room, and grab some training weapons. I'll let you back me into a wall; I'll even let you get a choke hold, or let you lock a hand or both hands on my gun wrist. I'll put the gun in my normal carry position.
If you want, put on some MA gloves, and I'll even let you strike if you feel up to it.
But I'd lay pretty good odds that I can complete the draw, regardless, and put simulated rounds in you.
I'll even teach you how to do it.
If interested, we can coordinate via a TFL staffer friend of mine.
Cheers,
M
PS GSUEagle1089, you're not too far away (preferred range and dojo are Marietta area), so you are welcome to come try this with a training weapon from the 6 position if you want.
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Man, really that would be really really wonderful, thanks so much, will you really, wow, l can't believe it. you'll teach, really? wow I'm so fortunate, you, you'll teach me wow. Can't believe it I don't know what to say, OMG you'll teach little old me wow. I 'm going to run all the way home can't wait to tell my mom. I think I may cry, I'm so so lucky. Wow, me, you'll be kind enough to teach me.
Crghss, there is a point where a person is no longer contributing anything of value to a conversation. Your time-stamped posts (and the edit job by a moderator) say you passed that point yesterday at 5:54.
As for the question at hand, carrying like the OP mentioned is not for me because I'd have to sweep myself with the muzzle.
As for the question at hand, carrying like the OP mentioned is not for me because I'd have to sweep myself with the muzzle.
FoxtrotRomeo
New member
Wow we're not opinionated are we? 
Time to address this. As I actually do carry SOB.
With me I pull straight up with the muzzle pointed down. The sweeping motion is also done with the muzzle pointed down at all times. It's actually more natural to do it that way for me.
1. Padded chairs, I wear a loose fitting t-shirt. So no it doesn't do that. I have found my shirt rides up but from several interactions in public, they can't see the 1911 behind my back anyway.
2. Hard Chairs, it depends on how you sit. I've done hard chairs and you get used to it.
3. The shirt. I make it a habit to make sure when I get up from a seat, bench, chair etc, to pull my shirt tail down. Problem solved.
If the dude is that close, why are you drawing? In that case you might as well take the dude down the caveman way (With your bare hands). Any special ops guy will start snapping bones at that range then draw his pistol while your on the ground/floor to hold you off. And that's if you're still breathing. Cops do the same. This is where martial arts training helps.
As for my arm being out of alignment, I'm 25 years old and I can take either hand and grab the opposite side of my waist from behind my back. Just the way I am built. Like I said, it's more natural for me.
Make sure your muzzle is down, safety on, and your bugger hook is off the bang switch. I always flip off the safety as I extend my arm to aim because by then, you probably want the safety off because you are just about set to have to do what you've prayed you never would have to do.
Time to address this. As I actually do carry SOB.
With me I pull straight up with the muzzle pointed down. The sweeping motion is also done with the muzzle pointed down at all times. It's actually more natural to do it that way for me.
1. Padded chairs, I wear a loose fitting t-shirt. So no it doesn't do that. I have found my shirt rides up but from several interactions in public, they can't see the 1911 behind my back anyway.
2. Hard Chairs, it depends on how you sit. I've done hard chairs and you get used to it.
3. The shirt. I make it a habit to make sure when I get up from a seat, bench, chair etc, to pull my shirt tail down. Problem solved.
OWB holster right? Bad move. That's why I go SOB with the IWB. Because the section that will hook you in, in that episode, is in your pants.
Maybe in a crowd at a cross walk. But with my pistol, it's heavy enough to know it's being lifted. It is an extreme cry from a wallet. It's a solid steel 1911.
If the dude is that close, why are you drawing? In that case you might as well take the dude down the caveman way (With your bare hands). Any special ops guy will start snapping bones at that range then draw his pistol while your on the ground/floor to hold you off. And that's if you're still breathing. Cops do the same. This is where martial arts training helps.
As for my arm being out of alignment, I'm 25 years old and I can take either hand and grab the opposite side of my waist from behind my back. Just the way I am built. Like I said, it's more natural for me.
Make sure your muzzle is down, safety on, and your bugger hook is off the bang switch. I always flip off the safety as I extend my arm to aim because by then, you probably want the safety off because you are just about set to have to do what you've prayed you never would have to do.
orionengnr
New member
Nothing smarmy about it. The spinal column is a vulnerable area, and carrying a chunk of steel in close proximity to your spine is not a good idea.
Those of us who have suffered spinal injuries, and who have had spinal surgery, will be quick to attest to this fact.
My spinal fusion injury (caused by something other than falling on a firearm, and thank God covered by insurance) put me totally out of comission for about a year and the surgery cost nearly $200K.
Do as you choose, but please make an informed decision.
For my part, SOB carry is not an option.
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Hardness, pressure, and force multipliers....
The thing about SOB for a gun is, it's not just about SOB for a gun.
What other hard piece of metal would you carry against your spine?
How often do you see motorcyclists, equestrians, skiiers, skaters, skateboarders, or other people whose hobbies often involve falls, carry any hard object in that position? Pads, sometimes, yes; hard, metal objects, not so much.
In a "good" back-fall, the muscles of the lats and buttocks absorb a lot of impact; arm slaps to either side also dissipate force and spread out for maximum contact area at point of impact.
In my case, that means 210lbs of falling weight gets distributed over a fairly large number of square inches. It also means that muscular or fatty areas make first contact with the ground, instead of pointy bits (elbows, shoulder blades, etc). Pointy bits break more easily.
Now, put a 1911 in SOB and take the same fall. The gun potentially meets the ground before the rest of your body. This means that the total force, in my case again 210lbs, is now distributed at that moment over only about 15 or 16 square inches of contact with the ground - this means radically increased pressure. (Force divided by contact surface area = pressure)
Pressure in a bullet = penetration. Guess what? Means the same thing for blunt instruments.
Now, the potential exists that just the tail edge of the 1911 frame, and maybe the beavertail, will make primary contact with my back in that moment. So now multiply the pressure by a factor of 5-10.
Both those components are harder and stronger than the muscles and vertebrae they would contact; they also will not flex.
So, take your latest fall, multiply the pain you felt by 10-20, and imagine all that pain and impact in a small section of your spine.
If you never fall, it won't matter. How many of us never fall? Especially if you think the possibility of being attacked is real, then even if you haven't taken such a fall yet, it's not unrealistic to think that someday you just might.
I prefer to wear my handgun in such a way that any impact is taken across thigh, gluteal, and belt muscles, not spinal column or hip joint.
The thing about SOB for a gun is, it's not just about SOB for a gun.
What other hard piece of metal would you carry against your spine?
How often do you see motorcyclists, equestrians, skiiers, skaters, skateboarders, or other people whose hobbies often involve falls, carry any hard object in that position? Pads, sometimes, yes; hard, metal objects, not so much.
In a "good" back-fall, the muscles of the lats and buttocks absorb a lot of impact; arm slaps to either side also dissipate force and spread out for maximum contact area at point of impact.
In my case, that means 210lbs of falling weight gets distributed over a fairly large number of square inches. It also means that muscular or fatty areas make first contact with the ground, instead of pointy bits (elbows, shoulder blades, etc). Pointy bits break more easily.
Now, put a 1911 in SOB and take the same fall. The gun potentially meets the ground before the rest of your body. This means that the total force, in my case again 210lbs, is now distributed at that moment over only about 15 or 16 square inches of contact with the ground - this means radically increased pressure. (Force divided by contact surface area = pressure)
Pressure in a bullet = penetration. Guess what? Means the same thing for blunt instruments.
Now, the potential exists that just the tail edge of the 1911 frame, and maybe the beavertail, will make primary contact with my back in that moment. So now multiply the pressure by a factor of 5-10.
Both those components are harder and stronger than the muscles and vertebrae they would contact; they also will not flex.
So, take your latest fall, multiply the pain you felt by 10-20, and imagine all that pain and impact in a small section of your spine.
If you never fall, it won't matter. How many of us never fall? Especially if you think the possibility of being attacked is real, then even if you haven't taken such a fall yet, it's not unrealistic to think that someday you just might.
I prefer to wear my handgun in such a way that any impact is taken across thigh, gluteal, and belt muscles, not spinal column or hip joint.
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