.45 super anyone?
- Thread starter HighValleyRanch
- Start date
Yeah well, marketing is always a factor to consider, and the difference in price may or may not be worth it.
You are right that for instance Underwood 45 +p 185gr have a speed of 1200fps, 592 ft-lbs energy, and sells for $19.50 box of 20:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18786995929145
... and Underwood 45 Super 185gr have a speed of 1300fps, 694 ft-lbs energy, and sells for $22.50 for a box of 20.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...-jacketed-hollow-point?variant=18785711456313
So the Super is 15 cents more per round that the +p, and gives 100 ft-lbs extra energy.
DoubleTap gives you a tad more, 1350fps - 749 ft./lbs, but it is even more expensive! $28 for a box of 20.
For me personally, the reason why it makes sense is that with 45 Super I am legal for big game hunting in Colorado (without having to buy a separate 10mm gun) which requires 550 ft-bs energy at 50 yards.
For uses other than hunting and defense in the woods, I do not know how much sense it would make.
But again I suppose that the point is that I can fire cheap 45 ACP as my regular round from my pistol, and then IF I need to, I can shoot 45 Super from time to time when hunting or out in the mountains. So my opinion, consider 45 Super / 450 SMC if you do not want to invest in a 10mm gun and you need more power out of a semi-auto for use in the wild.
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HighValleyRanch
New member
If you reload, .45 super does not cost anything more than .45 acp.
Well, you might add the slight cost of thick .45 super brass @ .29 each which is reuseable,
or a smidgen more powder, but pretty insignificant overall.
Oh, and the fully supported barrel, steel non captured guiderod, and extra strong recoil spring, and magazine springs, but what the hey, you now can shoot from powderpuff loads to 10mm equvalent loads all in the same pistol.
SImilar to Pistolero one gun situtation, we are only allowed 3 guns on our permit with which we have to qualify. It makes more sense to have one gun that is capable of many senarios from practice to SD to woods carry than multiple guns.
SImilar to qualifying with a .38/357, I can carry with either caliber, qualifying with .45 acp allows me to carry with .45 acp, .45 acp +P or .45 super. I cannot carry with .45 acp and 10mm conversion on the same qualified gun, nor a 10mm with .40 conversion. So sometimes .45 super does make sense. Not that one has to justify their needs or wants to anyone else of course!
Well, you might add the slight cost of thick .45 super brass @ .29 each which is reuseable,
or a smidgen more powder, but pretty insignificant overall.
Oh, and the fully supported barrel, steel non captured guiderod, and extra strong recoil spring, and magazine springs, but what the hey, you now can shoot from powderpuff loads to 10mm equvalent loads all in the same pistol.
SImilar to Pistolero one gun situtation, we are only allowed 3 guns on our permit with which we have to qualify. It makes more sense to have one gun that is capable of many senarios from practice to SD to woods carry than multiple guns.
SImilar to qualifying with a .38/357, I can carry with either caliber, qualifying with .45 acp allows me to carry with .45 acp, .45 acp +P or .45 super. I cannot carry with .45 acp and 10mm conversion on the same qualified gun, nor a 10mm with .40 conversion. So sometimes .45 super does make sense. Not that one has to justify their needs or wants to anyone else of course!
10mm killer? Head-to-head with 450 SMC / 45 Super
And:
Is 10mm dead? 450 SMC vs 10mm head to head
Again, 45 Super and 450 SMC are similar rounds that can be fired out of a 45 ACP semi-auto (with proper recoil spring).
And:
Is 10mm dead? 450 SMC vs 10mm head to head
Again, 45 Super and 450 SMC are similar rounds that can be fired out of a 45 ACP semi-auto (with proper recoil spring).
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HighValleyRanch
New member
So SMC is just Super brass that has a small rifle primer?
Yes, but not exactly.
My understanding is that SMC brass has a small rifle primer so that the walls of the case can be made thicker than those of regular 45 ACP or even 45 Super rounds. That means a stronger case.
It’s a .308 rifle case cut down. That way the 45 SMC can better cope with the higher pressures. On the other hand the parent case for the 45 Super is the .45 Winchester Magnum.
From left to right, Underwood's 45 Super (silver casing), DoubleTap 450 SMC, and .308 Win for reference.
Aledgedly SMC, short magnum cartridge, originally stood for "suck my .... " due to a trademark dispute.
Post from Fernando Coelho, one of the developers, at gunhub:
------------------------------------------------------------
"The 450 SMC came from a meeting at NASGW (can’t recall the exact year) with a buyer from a major distributor. They had been buying .45 Super ammo from Triton and when we discontinued producing the ammo, they were concerned because they still had plenty of Springfield Armory 1911s set up for the .45 Super. The buyer was aware of the trademark issues with the .45 Super and asked us if we could come out with a cartridge with a different name. One of my employees said, “yeah we can call it the suck my c**k”. After everyone got a chuckle out of that, I said, “how about the SMC?” The folks at STI already had a 1911 called the 450 that could handle the .45 Super, so we called it the 450 SMC. To make the name politically correct, we told everyone SMC stood for Short Magnum Cartridge. Those in the “inner circle” knew the real name.
This did give us a chance to improve upon the .45 Super cartridge case by using a small pistol primer pocket. Primer flow was a constant nuisance with the .45 Super and the smaller primer pocket would help alleviate that issue. In the end, we were able to squeeze more velocity out of the 450 SMC than we could with the .45 Super. "
https://gunhub.com/gun-talk/49832-45-super.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
You can read about differences between 45 Super and 450 SMC here:
https://archive.ph/20130124230052/h...n/1911_hot_rods/index1#selection-989.9-989.12
Attachments
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HighValleyRanch
New member
LOL,
I asked:
it states in that article...
"The .450 SMC is basically a .45 Super with a small primer pocket"
I asked:
it states in that article...
"The .450 SMC is basically a .45 Super with a small primer pocket"
A small rifle primer is recommended, and was the primer used in the original loads.
AKA, the 450 SMC was designed to use a small rifle primer.
silvermane_1
New member
I'm "gearing up" to shoot both 45 Super and 400 Cor-Bon, they're both interesting and awesome calibers, however the max is 185gr. bullets with 400 Cor-Bon there Pete, now there is the 40 Super, but it's almost mandatory for a 40 Super to have a comp or magna ported barrel.
No need for a comp with 45 Super.
And as far as bullets there are factory loads up to 255 gr.
I'd like to try the 460 Rowland! But that needs a comp, and so the Rowland pistol could not see double duty as EDC
silvermane_1
New member
I was talking about 185grs max for the 400 Cor-Bon, and no the 45 Super does need a comp, but it can't hurt.
except your ears45 Super does not need a comp, but it can't hurt.
Now seriously, I was considering toying with the 460 Rowland for my Glock 21, but the fact that it cannot be run without a compensator or ported barrel turned me off.
Such a round only makes sense for bear defense or hunting, and in any of those situations one probably does not wear ear protection. For me shooting a comp or ported barrel without ear protection is out of the question.
45 Super seems like a better choice than the Rowland for me in those scenarios because no comp needed.
silvermane_1
New member
Well you could always invest in a longer barrel to have it ported, that's what I plan on doing to my 400 Cor-Bon barrel since it's 5" in a CMD frame, but I plan on investing in a 4.25" 400 Cor-Bon barrel in the near future for carry perposes and I have barrel bushing compensator on the way for my SR1911 CMD for 45 Super.
Happy Thanksgiving Pistoler0 and to other posters who've posted on this topic,
For Pistoler0: I completely get it. In your scenario of handgun hunting in CO, minimum energy standards (which I believe are arbitrary) make the .45 Super viable. Hence, I agree with you: a .45 Super has utility that the .45 Auto lacks.
For all otters: self-defense handgun cartridges discussions/debates are academic, mostly entertainment. They lack relevance if they exclude the dominant criterion: the process of human incapacitation. Biology is controlling when determining whether a bipedal threat remains a threat.
Destruction of a bad guy's CNS will always immediately terminate his bad intentions. Absent a lucky CNS hit, a good guy will have to reduce a bad guy's blood pressure to zero as necessary to deny oxygenated blood to his depraved noggin. Lacking topside oxygenated blood supply, all that is living will die. This is a fundamental law of biology. There are no exceptions. Metabolism will determine remaining vertical time remaining. For human beings, it's 8 seconds. For big game animals, it can be as long as 30 seconds.
It's always most wise idea to avoid gunfights. In a gunfight, a bad guy intends to reduce a good guy to evidence preparatory for autopsy the following morning. No one in his right mind would engage in a gunfight when running away from one would assure his survival. The only exception is law enforcement. Cops have to engage. They do not have option of running away. Engaging marauding bad guys is a requirement of their profession. For the rest of us, becoming a live witness rather than evidence of murder is the only sane option.
In extremely rare cases where tactical retreat is not an option leaving engaging as the only option, many factors will come into play. Far more important than hitting a bad guy is taking action that would, prayerfully, prevent a bad guy from hitting a good guy. A good guy must remove himself from a bad guy's sight picture. Standing toe-to-toe and shooting it out with a bad guy is Hollywood myth with deadly consequences.
We all have our opinions, some more enlightened than others. People can become ingenious when it comes to rationalizing their favorite handguns and cartridges. In the end, a self-defense handgun and cartridge should be the meshing of scientific evidence with circumstances of most likely bad guy confrontations. The best way to avoid bad guy confrontations and remaining vertical is situational awareness and tactical retreating. If I were in a 5-star restaurant dining with a drop dead gorgeous woman and tatted up bangers were to enter, I'd pay and leave posthaste. Avoidance = survival.
There's a controlling axiom in gunfighting: one good guy vs. one bag guy = bad odds for the good guy. I completely get it that a large city dweller (LA, for example) would probably be best served with a standard capacity 9MM if his most likely encounter would be 2 very bad guys. Add a third bad guy or more, and I'd pray for an Apache helicopter as back-up.
I'd recommend to good guys who want avoid becoming evidence of murder to exclude revolvers if reloading would be likely. Revolvers are pronounced tactical disadvantages in gunfights, exponentially more so if a good guy were confronted by more than one marauder.
Keeping in mind that sentimental preference almost always controls handgun selection, people do not always choose the best handguns for saving their lives. Many people choose their sentimental favorites that aren't always best. I will never tell such a person that he has chosen poorly. Depending upon circumstances, I might diplomatically angle in the concept of reconsidering. I do know that sentiment does negate practicality.
Returning to biological laws that hasten incapacitation, absent a CNS hit, one has to rely upon the lengthy process of reducing a bad guy's blood pressure to zero. 8 seconds is an eternity if a bad buy were putting rounds on a good guy. Absent a heart shot (Humans will live 8 seconds more with a nonfunctioning heart, an eternity if a bad guy were to continue to put rounds on a good guy.) a good guy will have to cause massive hemorrhaging of blood to effect zero blood pressure. Hence, my preference for the 1911A1 .45 Auto: bigger holes = more bleeding, all else been equal. More big holes = more blood loss. More blood loss = hastened incapacitation. I know the refrain: modern technology has elevated the 9MM's status. However, for practical reasons, I'll never rely upon a bullet to perform like magic mushrooms found in handgun ammunition manufacturers' marketing adds. I'll take bullet expansion, but I will not rely upon it to remain vertical. That Irishman and his pesky law seem to arise at worst possible times.
There is no such trick as defensive handgun stopping power. That is classic pulp fiction. The 10MM doesn't have it, and neither does the .45 Super.
There is no such thing as a bad hit on a bad guy. Any hit on a bad guy is a good hit. Some hits are better than others, but there are no bad hits.
For self-defense use, if anyone wants to go with a .45 Super or 10MM or any other cartridge, he might want to reconcile his choice with laws of biology.
I completely understand Psitoler0's need for a .45 Super. He is burdened with his state law that requires minimum handgun energy for big game hunting. For self-defense, there is no benefit of the .45 Super vis-a-vis the .45 Auto.
I've done a lot of circling to have long past full circle. While I couldn't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on my person, if it were practical and I lived in an area plagued with high crime, I'd carry a full-size 1911A1 loaded with Fed 230 grain HST LE +P ammo. A full-size 1911A1 is easy to conceal. But it's not easy to carry when wearing urban clothing. It is one heavy handgun. My preference is based upon objective criteria: sight picture retention (recoil does not remove muzzle from threat), simplistic design of 1911A1, low pressure yet powerful cartridge, ease of concealment, proven cartridge with stellar track record, extremely fast reload, and the most perfect natural point of any handgun I've held. All of its vaunted attributes are wiped out by its weight. Hence, my urban carry compromise is a Springfield Armory EMP 3 9MM loaded with Fed 147 grain HST LE standard pressure rounds. However, when I'm in deep wilderness areas pursuing trout, I carry a Springfield Armory TRP .45 Auto loaded with Fed 230 grain HST LE +P ammo. I wear an excellent gun belt attached thereto is an excellent OWB open top holster.
Anecdote: I have carried a 1911 with 230 grain W-W White Box ball ammo and never felt the least bit slighted.
I know that personal preference and sentiment often does prevail. I'm completely good. Who the heck am I to tell another that his sentimental favorite is a poor choice? For bipedal self-defense, if people want to believe that the 10MM or .45 Super are superior to the .45 Auto, I'm good. They know what's right for them; however, their sentimental favorites might conflict with laws of biology and science of gunfight survival.
Pistoler0, under conditions of your state's handgun hunting law, the .45 Super is an excellent choice.
Here are a couple videos that support of my conclusion that the 1911A1 .45 Auto is alone at the pinnacle of self-defense handguns. I cannot over emphasize the critical importance of sight picture retention. Giving a bipedal marauder time to put rounds on a bad guy while a good guy reacquires sight picture due to recoil yanking his gun's muzzle off target can be a fatal tactical disadvantage.
Watch the blazing speed these guys accurately empty a full-size 1911A1, and that their gun's muzzles never leave sight pictures:
Skip to the 19:45 mark to view speed shooting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgs3nse8rW0
Thanksgiving 1911A1 rapid fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgs3nse8rW0
For Pistoler0: I completely get it. In your scenario of handgun hunting in CO, minimum energy standards (which I believe are arbitrary) make the .45 Super viable. Hence, I agree with you: a .45 Super has utility that the .45 Auto lacks.
For all otters: self-defense handgun cartridges discussions/debates are academic, mostly entertainment. They lack relevance if they exclude the dominant criterion: the process of human incapacitation. Biology is controlling when determining whether a bipedal threat remains a threat.
Destruction of a bad guy's CNS will always immediately terminate his bad intentions. Absent a lucky CNS hit, a good guy will have to reduce a bad guy's blood pressure to zero as necessary to deny oxygenated blood to his depraved noggin. Lacking topside oxygenated blood supply, all that is living will die. This is a fundamental law of biology. There are no exceptions. Metabolism will determine remaining vertical time remaining. For human beings, it's 8 seconds. For big game animals, it can be as long as 30 seconds.
It's always most wise idea to avoid gunfights. In a gunfight, a bad guy intends to reduce a good guy to evidence preparatory for autopsy the following morning. No one in his right mind would engage in a gunfight when running away from one would assure his survival. The only exception is law enforcement. Cops have to engage. They do not have option of running away. Engaging marauding bad guys is a requirement of their profession. For the rest of us, becoming a live witness rather than evidence of murder is the only sane option.
In extremely rare cases where tactical retreat is not an option leaving engaging as the only option, many factors will come into play. Far more important than hitting a bad guy is taking action that would, prayerfully, prevent a bad guy from hitting a good guy. A good guy must remove himself from a bad guy's sight picture. Standing toe-to-toe and shooting it out with a bad guy is Hollywood myth with deadly consequences.
We all have our opinions, some more enlightened than others. People can become ingenious when it comes to rationalizing their favorite handguns and cartridges. In the end, a self-defense handgun and cartridge should be the meshing of scientific evidence with circumstances of most likely bad guy confrontations. The best way to avoid bad guy confrontations and remaining vertical is situational awareness and tactical retreating. If I were in a 5-star restaurant dining with a drop dead gorgeous woman and tatted up bangers were to enter, I'd pay and leave posthaste. Avoidance = survival.
There's a controlling axiom in gunfighting: one good guy vs. one bag guy = bad odds for the good guy. I completely get it that a large city dweller (LA, for example) would probably be best served with a standard capacity 9MM if his most likely encounter would be 2 very bad guys. Add a third bad guy or more, and I'd pray for an Apache helicopter as back-up.
I'd recommend to good guys who want avoid becoming evidence of murder to exclude revolvers if reloading would be likely. Revolvers are pronounced tactical disadvantages in gunfights, exponentially more so if a good guy were confronted by more than one marauder.
Keeping in mind that sentimental preference almost always controls handgun selection, people do not always choose the best handguns for saving their lives. Many people choose their sentimental favorites that aren't always best. I will never tell such a person that he has chosen poorly. Depending upon circumstances, I might diplomatically angle in the concept of reconsidering. I do know that sentiment does negate practicality.
Returning to biological laws that hasten incapacitation, absent a CNS hit, one has to rely upon the lengthy process of reducing a bad guy's blood pressure to zero. 8 seconds is an eternity if a bad buy were putting rounds on a good guy. Absent a heart shot (Humans will live 8 seconds more with a nonfunctioning heart, an eternity if a bad guy were to continue to put rounds on a good guy.) a good guy will have to cause massive hemorrhaging of blood to effect zero blood pressure. Hence, my preference for the 1911A1 .45 Auto: bigger holes = more bleeding, all else been equal. More big holes = more blood loss. More blood loss = hastened incapacitation. I know the refrain: modern technology has elevated the 9MM's status. However, for practical reasons, I'll never rely upon a bullet to perform like magic mushrooms found in handgun ammunition manufacturers' marketing adds. I'll take bullet expansion, but I will not rely upon it to remain vertical. That Irishman and his pesky law seem to arise at worst possible times.
There is no such trick as defensive handgun stopping power. That is classic pulp fiction. The 10MM doesn't have it, and neither does the .45 Super.
There is no such thing as a bad hit on a bad guy. Any hit on a bad guy is a good hit. Some hits are better than others, but there are no bad hits.
For self-defense use, if anyone wants to go with a .45 Super or 10MM or any other cartridge, he might want to reconcile his choice with laws of biology.
I completely understand Psitoler0's need for a .45 Super. He is burdened with his state law that requires minimum handgun energy for big game hunting. For self-defense, there is no benefit of the .45 Super vis-a-vis the .45 Auto.
I've done a lot of circling to have long past full circle. While I couldn't tell you the last time I've carried a handgun on my person, if it were practical and I lived in an area plagued with high crime, I'd carry a full-size 1911A1 loaded with Fed 230 grain HST LE +P ammo. A full-size 1911A1 is easy to conceal. But it's not easy to carry when wearing urban clothing. It is one heavy handgun. My preference is based upon objective criteria: sight picture retention (recoil does not remove muzzle from threat), simplistic design of 1911A1, low pressure yet powerful cartridge, ease of concealment, proven cartridge with stellar track record, extremely fast reload, and the most perfect natural point of any handgun I've held. All of its vaunted attributes are wiped out by its weight. Hence, my urban carry compromise is a Springfield Armory EMP 3 9MM loaded with Fed 147 grain HST LE standard pressure rounds. However, when I'm in deep wilderness areas pursuing trout, I carry a Springfield Armory TRP .45 Auto loaded with Fed 230 grain HST LE +P ammo. I wear an excellent gun belt attached thereto is an excellent OWB open top holster.
Anecdote: I have carried a 1911 with 230 grain W-W White Box ball ammo and never felt the least bit slighted.
I know that personal preference and sentiment often does prevail. I'm completely good. Who the heck am I to tell another that his sentimental favorite is a poor choice? For bipedal self-defense, if people want to believe that the 10MM or .45 Super are superior to the .45 Auto, I'm good. They know what's right for them; however, their sentimental favorites might conflict with laws of biology and science of gunfight survival.
Pistoler0, under conditions of your state's handgun hunting law, the .45 Super is an excellent choice.
Here are a couple videos that support of my conclusion that the 1911A1 .45 Auto is alone at the pinnacle of self-defense handguns. I cannot over emphasize the critical importance of sight picture retention. Giving a bipedal marauder time to put rounds on a bad guy while a good guy reacquires sight picture due to recoil yanking his gun's muzzle off target can be a fatal tactical disadvantage.
Watch the blazing speed these guys accurately empty a full-size 1911A1, and that their gun's muzzles never leave sight pictures:
Skip to the 19:45 mark to view speed shooting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgs3nse8rW0
Thanksgiving 1911A1 rapid fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgs3nse8rW0
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HighValleyRanch
New member
Comparing the average shooter to Jerry Miculek is like comparing Peewan Herman to Arnold Schwarzenegger!
Hi HighValleyRanch,
I gotta agree with you. However, with practice, one can become extremely proficient with rapid fire, point shooting a 1911A1 at a silhouette 7 yards distant and place all rounds on target.
The divine, natural point of a full-size 1911A1 makes point shooting almost too easy. The low pressure .45 Auto round helps to mitigate recoil which helps with sight picture retention.
I gotta agree with you. However, with practice, one can become extremely proficient with rapid fire, point shooting a 1911A1 at a silhouette 7 yards distant and place all rounds on target.
The divine, natural point of a full-size 1911A1 makes point shooting almost too easy. The low pressure .45 Auto round helps to mitigate recoil which helps with sight picture retention.
Man, I skipped to the 19:45 mark, and I am still smiling!!!
TALENT!!!
Happy Thanks Giving everybody.
HighValleyRanch
New member
I was thinking of something more with a bear belly!