.45 super anyone?

[Ruger45LC]

I played around with it for a while, have lots of data for it using 800x, Longshot, Power Pistol and maybe a few others. I used a Gen4 Glock 21 then dropped in a KKM 4 port compensated barrel.

A little into it had the throat of the barrel extended a bit because I wanted to run .452" revolver style bullets that had more of a blunt nose and they would touch the rifling causing me to have to load them to a shorter OAL.

But from the nearly 5" KKM G21 Gen4 I've ran as light as a 185gr @ 1600+ fps on up to 300gr hardcast @ 1150fps and a loads in between. The comp is needed at those levels because at that point, it's basically a 460 Rowland. The 460 isn't longer overall, it just uses longer brass so it won't accidentally fire in an unsupported 45 ACP gun, otherwise you can load 45 Super to 460 specs, heck some guys used .45 ACP brass to get similar results, but I'm not that adventurous. I used new Starline .45 Super brass and the KKM barrel had excellent case support.

Ultimately the upper end stuff, I felt, was being a bit rough on the guns frame. I mean many of the loads ranged from 800 to 1000 ft-lbs with heavy bullets, which I don't think the Glock was ever really intended for. The heavy loads were fun to see what the .45 Super can do, but overall I think mid-range .45 Super makes the most sense. It's easier on the gun, on the shooter and better socially, like a 250gr Gold Dot @ 1100-1150 fps.

 

[Pistoler0]

Glock 21 as 30, modified for Super

Hi all,

I am new to the forum.

My story: due to financial limitations and a significant other who is somewhat "anti", I am limited to 1 gun: 1 handgun, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun, that is.

In all fairness to my wonderful and understanding significant other, I have many hobbies (bicycling, archery, motorcycles) so a limit is not unreasonable.

Anyway my handgun has to do it all and as such, it is a compromise. It has to be affordable to shoot and practice with, suitable for competition, home defense and conceal carry. It also has to be legal for hunting in Colorado where I reside, and CO requires 550 ft-lbs of energy at 50 yards for big game hand gun hunting.

My compromise, do-it-all handgun is a 3rd Generation Glock 21 modified for 45 Super / .450 SMC. Since I use this as my everyday CCW gun and I work in an environment where no printing is a must, I chopped the gun to a Glock 30 size. The beauty of this is that the slide and barrel are still 4.6" length, legal for hunting in CO (4" barrel minimum) and suitable for competition.

Double Tap 450 SMC 230 grainers give me around 650 ft-lbs at the muzzle and can be handled without a comp (same energy as hot loaded 10mm rounds), which translates into the required 550 ft-lbs at 50 yards for CO hunting. And since my limitation to 1 handgun precludes me from owning a 454 Casull, 13 rds of 45 Super (again, similar to 10mm) may help if I am ever in a situation to meet a bear spray resistant brownie.

Using X-grips mag sleeves, the gun can be used with the original 13 rd mag and reverts back to the full size Glock 21 configuration:

Years ago I installed a Cominolli thumb safety, and I carry the gun AIWB daily with no troubles. I practice weekly, 100+ rounds of both regular .45 ACP and DoubleTap 45 Super 230 grainers. I've put 1000s of rounds through it in the last few years, with not 1 hiccup. In addition I installed "the gadget" for reholstering with my thumb on the back plate as if it was a hammer on a DA/SA.

Here is AIWB reholstering process:
a) bending backwards, hip thrust forwards, right leg back and a holster that does not deform (Garrett Silent Thunder) = no self muzzling.
b) Cominolli safety on and/or thumb pressing on "the gadget" = no negligent discharge (even if trigger is being actuated somehow)
a) + b) = no Glock leg

Negligent discharge + a) = no Glock leg
Self muzzling + b) = no Glock leg

Probability of Glock leg =
Chance of: depressing the trigger + also not doing a) + also not doing b) = 0.00000000001 %
The only way it could be lower is with no round in the chamber.

Also chance of: needing to fire a shot + not disengaging thumb safety = chance of doing so with a 1911 = (almost) chance of forgetting to depress the trigger itself.

Overall I am extremely happy, feel safe carrying AIWB with one in the chamber, and I am 100% confident in the reliability of this set-up.
The Cominolli safety works exactly as a 1911 or a CZ, or H&K safety. "The Gadget" allows me to reholster with a thumb on the back plate which prevents the gun from firing EVEN IF the thumb safety was disengaged, and the trigger was being depressed: exactly like reholstering a DA de-cocked pistol with a thumb pressing down on the hammer.

Again, let me re-state that this setup has been in my gun for years, and after 1000s of rounds of 45 ACP and 45 Super fired, it has been 100% reliable.

All modifications done by my good friend Sean at SOVEREIGN ARMORY in Colorado:

https://www.sovereignarmory.com/


My one and only handgun is also my one and only love and I don't lust for any other : )

----------------------------------------
Note: People will reproach me for the $ spent and the modifications done to the "perfect" Glock, instead of buying a pistol designed and built from the get go with the features I desire. The answer is that such a pistol does not exist. H&K and Sig and CZ offer pistols in 45 ACP with a hammer and thumb safety, but ammo capacity is much less and also the ability to go from a compact size for concealement to a full size format is not there.

Remember that the whole reason for this project was the limitation to ONE handgun, and the necessity to make this one pistol be a do-it-all tool.

 

[Pistoler0]

45 Super I should add one thing

I should add one thing to my previous post:

in order for my 45 Super conversion to work reliably with both 45 ACP 230 grainers and Double Tap 45 Super 230 grainers, I had to:

1) Use a heavy tungsten spring rod and 22lbs recoil spring
2) I had to double spring the 13 round ammo mag I use for 45 super. The smaller mags seem (10 and 9 rounders) seem to work fine with both kinds of ammo.
3) The gun was fitted with a KKM barrel which has a fully supported chamber.

Double springing means a reduction of 2 rounds. So for 45 Super use in the woods or hunting, I attached a +2 round mag extension to the 13 round mag, then double springed it, and that way I have a 13 rds mag suitable for 45 Super and predator defense in the woods.

Here is the Glock with the +2 extension that allows for double mag spring and thus 13 rds of 45 Super for woods carry:

For EDC I don't feel the extra power of the super is needed, and so I carry regular 45 ACP 230 gr ammo in a 9 rds magazine that allows me to conceal my ONE and ONLY perfectly.

Cheers.

 

[jeepman1320]

I run 45 super in my Sig Extreme 5" gun. Harrison Design flat bottom firing pin stop, 18lbs flat wire recoil spring, a 34lbs mainspring, and a xtra xtra power wolff firing pin spring. Tames my 230gr HST at 1250fps pretty well. I use a regular short GI spring guide and a GI plug without issue. I checked my barrel lugs to ensure good solid engagement prior to running them hot. I would suggest you do the same.

My 45 super load is an Extreme Bullets 230gr FN coated bullets or Federal HST bullets over 10.5gr of Alliant Power Pistol with CCI large pistol primers and Starline 45 Super brass. Empties are landing 8-12 feet away at approximately the 4 o'clock position.

 

[silvermane_1]

Is the .45 Super more or less than the .45 Mag?

Tony

If you're referring to the 45 Win Mag no, it's not, the 45 Win Mag is basically a semi-auto 454 Casull, 45 Super is basically a semi-auto 45 Colt, where as the 45 ACP is a semi-auto 45 Scholfield.

 

[Pistoler0]

If you're referring to the 45 Win Mag no, it's not, the 45 Win Mag is basically a semi-auto 454 Casull, 45 Super is basically a semi-auto 45 Colt, where as the 45 ACP is a semi-auto 45 Scholfield.

The hottest factory load for 45 Super (Underwood 185 gr) tops out at 694 ft-lbs.

whereas Underwood's 45 Winchester Magnum is around the 1300 ft-lbs mark. So roughly double the 45 Super.

There is another conversion for 45 ACP pistols, the conversion to 460 Rowland, with a muzzle energy that tops at 1019 ft-lbs. So the 460 Rowland is a bit closer to the 45 Win Mag, but still a good 20% behind in the energy curve. 460 Rowland converted semi-auto pistols can still fire regular 45 ACP ammo, but the downside is that their barrel needs to be ported. This is not a requirement for 45 Super, though.

 

[Dave T]

If you're referring to the 45 Win Mag no, it's not, the 45 Win Mag is basically a semi-auto 454 Casull, 45 Super is basically a semi-auto 45 Colt, where as the 45 ACP is a semi-auto 45 Scholfield.

Well said. A good explanation, even with the misspelling. (smile)

Dave

 

[silvermane_1]

Well said. A good explanation, even with the misspelling. (smile)

Dave

Which misspelling?, refering?, it was more of a typo.

 

[darkgael]

He may have been referring to the extra L in Schofield. Could also be a typo.

 

[silvermane_1]

He may have been referring to the extra L in Schofield. Could also be a typo.

That how Scholfield was spelled when I did the search for it.

 

[silvermane_1]

The hottest factory load for 45 Super (Underwood 185 gr) tops out at 694 ft-lbs.

whereas Underwood's 45 Winchester Magnum is around the 1300 ft-lbs mark. So roughly double the 45 Super.

There is another conversion for 45 ACP pistols, the conversion to 460 Rowland, with a muzzle energy that tops at 1019 ft-lbs. So the 460 Rowland is a bit closer to the 45 Win Mag, but still a good 20% behind in the energy curve. 460 Rowland converted semi-auto pistols can still fire regular 45 ACP ammo, but the downside is that their barrel needs to be ported. This is not a requirement for 45 Super, though.

That's my point there Pistoler0, the 45 Super is more akin to an 45 Colt/Long Colt or 45 cal with 357 mag "power".

 

[Geezerbiker]

Now you guys have gotten me interested. Now I think I need a .45 Super...

Tony

 

[JERRYS.]

what is needed (parts changes) to safety shoot 45 super starting from a stock Glock 21? not what is preferred, or what you rather, or like.... but the bare minimum to convert over?

thanks

 

[darkgael]

Silver: Understood. You got bad info from that search.

One thing (another thing, a minor thing) about the .45 Super that diminished my interest in it was having to pay closer attention to retrieving my brass after shooting. (I know.... lazy.). This was even more of an issue with the .400 CorBon....a cartridge that I liked more than the Super.
Thinking about it now.....I may go and give the .400 another try. .357 mag ballistics from a 1911. Not quite 10mm, but very close with bullets at 135 grains. And at lower pressures.
I have tried the Rowland....lots of fun but close to .44 mag only with the lighter bullets.

Pete

 

[Lohman446]

As ease of cartridge error comes into play I am going to introduce another round to this topic that really caught my fancy. In the end I went with 10MM but the .40 SUPER round for those who reload is really interesting. Think of it as the 357 SIG all grown up (a .45 Super necked down to .40) it was, at one point, destined for that but things do not always go as planned.

No way are you accidentally loading the wrong cartridge. Of course this also means you don't have the ease of "conversion" of simply dropping in a standard .45 either.

 

[Pistoler0]

what is needed (parts changes) to safety shoot 45 super starting from a stock Glock 21? not what is preferred, or what you rather, or like.... but the bare minimum to convert over?

thanks

Jerrys, for my Glock 21 (3rd generation) I got:

- a HEAVY tungsten guide rod and a 22 lbs recoil spring which I got from glockstore.
- some ammo mags may have springs that are too weak and thus don't push the round in fast enough. So you may need to buy a heavier mag spring from Wolff. In my case, I put 2 mag springs in my 13 round mag that I use with 45 Super.
- You may need a barrel. I got mine from KKM, because they are fully supported, but apparently Wolf barrels are also good for 45 Super and cheaper (around $99).

If you don't want to spend the money on a barrel and you want to use the Glock one, then instead of 45 Super (available from Underwood) buy .450 SMC ammo (from DoubleTap). The brass cases are a much sturdier for .450 SMC, and barrel support is a bit less of an issue.

But anyway, most people say a barrel with better case support than the Glock barrel is needed.

I shoot regular 45 ACP and 45 Super or .450 SMC from my Glock 21 with no issue, and I have done it for years. The only problem I had with FTF was solved by doubling the spring in the mag.

For those who are apprehensive about trying the 45 Super, keep in mind that 45 ACP is an old cartridge that was developed with much lower chamber pressures (21,000 psi) than modern cartridges. 45 Super only brings the chamber pressure of the 45 to 28,000 psi, and 450 SMC to 32,000 psi. That is still a bit less than 9mm (34,000 psi) and considerably lower pressure than 10mm (37,500 psi).

Now the Glock 20 is exactly the same pistol as the Glock 21. So there is no reason why the Glock 21 with the right barrel couldn't handle the same energy and pressure as the Glock 20.



BOTTOMLINE:

Bare MINIMUM for 450 SMC (Doubletap): a HEAVY tungsten guide rod and a 22 lbs recoil spring (from glockstore): $60
https://www.glockstore.com/Tungsten-Competition-Recoil-Spring_3


Bare MINIMUM for 45 Super (Underwood, Buffalo Bore): a HEAVY tungsten guide rod and 22 lbs recoil spring (from glockstore) $60, and a Wolf barrel: $99.95
https://www.glockstore.com/Tungsten-Competition-Recoil-Spring_3
https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8152

Extra mag spring probably needed for proper feeding of rounds. $8
https://www.gunsprings.com/GLOCK ®/cID1/mID5/dID116#148

 

[Pistoler0]

The reason why with 45 Super you may need a new barrel that has better case support than Glock's, and why with 450 SMC you don't, is that with 45 Super the issue is with the strength of the brass casing for the round.

45 Super uses the same brass casing as regular 45 ACP, but it loads the round to a higher pressure. Therefore some reloaders report that casings have a tendency to show signs of overpressure such as bulging and smileys. But again the issue is with the casings used.

Factory loads for 45 Super such as Underwood's and Buffalo Bore of course use brass casing that is sturdy enough to handle the slightly higher chamber pressure of the Super.

450 SMC is a different thing altogether, because its brass casing has been developed from a rifle casing which is much much sturdier and has more brass at the case's base. The round and its case was developed from the start to be fired from 45 ACP pistols:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com...0-smc-a-potent-practical-defensive-cartridge/
Quoting: "what you’re probably wondering is what you have to do to shoot .450 SMC in your .45 ACP. Well, a .450 SMC cartridge can be fired in any .45 ACP handgun. However—and this is a big however—it should only be fired in full-size .45 ACP handguns that have a +P rating. (A 20- to 22-pound recoil spring in your favorite 5-inch 1911, or a 21- to 23-pound spring in a Glock.)" - Richard Mann

Another read about 450 SMC:
https://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/450-smc-ammo/

Notice the smaller rifle primer in the 450 SMC round, which allows for the walls in the brass casing to be thicker so the round is better suited for the higher pressures.

I shoot both 45 Super and 450 SMC out of my Glock 21.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/cartridge_45-super

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=303_354


BTW I LOVE these two rounds and I post so much about them because I am hoping more shooters will embrace them and with lots of users, maybe their price will come down! : )

 

[Pistoler0]

Silver: Understood. You got bad info from that search.

One thing (another thing, a minor thing) about the .45 Super that diminished my interest in it was having to pay closer attention to retrieving my brass after shooting. (I know.... lazy.). This was even more of an issue with the .400 CorBon....a cartridge that I liked more than the Super.
Thinking about it now.....I may go and give the .400 another try. .357 mag ballistics from a 1911. Not quite 10mm, but very close with bullets at 135 grains. And at lower pressures.
I have tried the Rowland....lots of fun but close to .44 mag only with the lighter bullets.

Pete

he he, I know what you mean.

With 45 Super my brass lands 8 to 12 ft away from me, at my 4 o'clock. Apparently this is ok. If much further it means the recoil spring is too weak and probably the pistol frame being battered.

 

[SATRP]

I've thought about a .45 Super, and rethought it.

I couldn't answer one simple question: why?

 

[Pistoler0]

I've thought about a .45 Super, and rethought it.

I couldn't answer one simple question: why?

Ah, yes, SATRP, I am with you, and the round is more expensive than regular 45 ACP too!. For me it is only because I live in Colorado, and in CO in order to legally hunt big game with a pistol you need to use a round that generates 550 ft-lbs of energy at 50 yards.

45 Super does that and so does 10mm out of a semi-auto.
For example it would be illegal in CO to finish off a badly wounded deer or elk with a 9mm.

Why not own a 10mm then? Becs my significant other limits me to 1 handgun, and I need something versatile that is also cheap to shoot and allowed in competition. Glock 21 fits the criteria and with 45 Super I can hunt with it. For me, 45 Super substitutes for 10mm.

So anyway, that is the only reason. Also maybe.. better for defense from big critters in the woods?

But yeah, for EDC its not needed, I load regular 45 ACP for that.