45 COLT: Please tell me what I am missing...

[nate45]

One other interesting point about .44 magnum. Despite all his talk, Dirty Harry says in Magnum Force that he actually loads his big old Smith and Wesson 29 revolver with light .44 special loads. It looks like he has a big gun for the intimidation factor and to help control recoil so be can be more accurate.... And indeed he is the best shot on the police force probably in no small part due to using a light load in a heavy gun.

Then how come when Dirty Harry shoots his .44, they use a Magnum sound effect and he looks like he's taking Magnum recoil?

Also, why do people fly backwards like they were hit with a 20 mm cannon? Which is at least what would be needed to achieve that.

Could it be that its because its just a movie?

 

[Edward429451]

(coming from a first time 45 Colt owner)

I love this round! It is huge! I'm used to the big bad 44 Mag and here is the stocky older brother! It's different, bigger, lower pressure, I love it! Tim Taylor would love this round too, it's the American mans man round. Soup it up even more and its a 454! Whats not to like?!

Its a handloaders dream too. I'm havin so much fun with this round and gun its epic.

I'm savin up for this bad boy

 

[Aguila Blanca]

So what does it really come down to? .45acp is right out. Doesn't even begin to compete with the heavy .45 colt stuff. .45 colt vs .44 magnum? You give up a little energy with the .45 colt, but you gain an extra .23 inches of bullet diameter. Sounds like a toss-up to me.

.23 is about a quarter of an inch!

Let's see: .452 - .427 = .025. Yep -- looks like you lost a decimal place there.

 

[bossman]

All you have to do is the tree test, I own a lot of trees. The tree test is just take the big ole slow 255 gr bullet and thump that tree. See how many walnuts fall out.

 

[Nanuk]

Yup.....

.025 or .027 is a HUGE difference in bullet diameter......

45 colt is a great cartridge, so is a 45 ACP and a 44 magnum.

I have picked a 44 mag over a 45 colt though, just my opinion.

 

[triumph666]

the 45 long colt fires a much heavier bullet at a slower speed than 45 acp....

most 45 long colt ammo store bought are considered cowboy loads because of the amount of OLD 45lc guns out there that were designed for blackpowder charges....

In modern 45LC's you can generally load hotter ammo...i have 300grn xtp's that go well over a 1000fps and are brutal on the hand to shoot but i dont shoot a 100 year old Colt revolver either

 

[Buzzcook]

the 45 long colt fires a much heavier bullet at a slower speed than 45 acp

The .45acp was designed to mimic the performance of the .45 Colt. Standard loads for both cartridges are in the 850fps range and the 230gr acp isn't that much smaller than the 255gr .45 Colt.

The .45 Colt can be driven faster than the .45acp. Case capacity and the type of platform make a difference.

 

[B.N.Real]

The 45 colt has BIG history in handgunning.

It worked well long ago and works today and is a fun round to shoot too.

Everyone I see with one (or more) is always smiling.

Tells me something about the 45 Colt.

Reloaders favorite round for sure.

 

[arentol]

.23 is about a quarter of an inch!

Let's see: .452 - .427 = .025. Yep -- looks like you lost a decimal place there.

My bad. That is what I get for posting at nearly midnight.

 

[natman]

.025 or .027 is a HUGE difference in bullet diameter......

Doesn't sound like much does it? However, frontal area is what's important in terminal ballistics (as far as dimensions go) and frontal area increases a lot more than you might think with a small change in diameter.

The formula to calculate frontal area is (1/2*Diameter)^2*Pi. So the 5% change in diameter results in an 11% increase in frontal area.

The last time I posted this on another forum it triggered all kinds of off the wall responses, so let me preempt some of them:

I am NOT saying that frontal area is the ONLY important factor in terminal ballistics.
I am NOT saying that the 45 Colt is more powerful than a 44 Magnum just because it has a larger frontal area.
I am NOT saying that a 45 Colt is more powerful than a 300 Magnum rifle, just because it has a larger frontal area. (Yes, I really got a post like that.)

I'm just saying that frontal area, not diameter, is what you should look at when comparing the dimensions of two different calibers and that it increases faster than you might think. That's all.

There are indeed many other factors to take into consideration when deciding how effective a load will be.

 

[Nanuk]

But we are talking about .59 of a mm..... I see this as totally insignificant. If you were for example comparing a 38 Semi wadcutter (.357) to a 45 colt Semi wadcutter (.458) at the same velocity then the difference would actually mean something. A difference .101 of an inch or 2 2.58 MM.

I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just saying that a 45 (.458) does NOT give you any tangible benefit over a 44 (.429) measured by diameter or frontal area. There are way to many variables to be considered, velocity is way more critical that 1/2 of a mm of groove diameter.

 

[Pilot]

I am just saying that a 45 (.458) does NOT give you any tangible benefit over a 44 (.429) measured by diameter or frontal area. There are way to many variables to be considered, velocity is way more critical that 1/2 of a mm.

That is true, but when .45 Colt is loaded to its full potential, what difference are we really seeing in velocity of bullets of similar weights to .44 Mag?

 

[Nanuk]

Ok Pilot, now we are getting somewhere.

I submit that a 255 grn WFN 45 Colt and a 250 grn WFN 44 mag at the same velocity are going to produce results so close that we may not be able to tell the difference.

Hence the OP " What am I missing with the 45 colt?" Nothing as long as you use your hot loads in a gun safe for it. You can hot-rod a 44 mag too and has been posted, for the sake of argument use identical guns, say Ruger Super Redhawks.

I believe then the whole exercise is academic.

 

[Pilot]

^^^^^^^


Totally agree. For practical purposes the only difference in energy/results between a full power .45 Colt in a firearm designed for it (Rugers, etc) and .44 Magnum is the word "magnum".

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Why .45 Colt when there are others that on paper would do the job better?

Reason #1 Well becuse it still works.
Reason #2 People still shoot it, and like it.
Reason #3 It is still fun to shoot.
Reason #4 With a handloader it is very versitile from just for fun powder puff loads, to low end .454 Cassul loads out of the stout framed revolvers.
Reason #5 Who cares what the reason is just shoot it, and have fun. Repeat many times over.

 

[Salmoneye]

"Cuz this one goes to '11'..."

Spinal Tap

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Ballistics By The inch, 45 colt seems somewhat inferior to the 44 magnum and 45 ACP, because it is several hundred fps slower.

My 4.62-inch New Vaquero has clocked a tick over 900 fps with a 250-grain cast bullet and 9 grains of Unique...which is a dead ringer for SAAMI standard pressures. While that gives up quite a bit of thump to the .44 Magnum, it spanks even +P .45 ACP.

And the .45 ACP was developed to match the ballistics of the .45 Schofield...not the .45 Colt. The Schofield's 230 grain lead RN bullet hit 750 fps...when fired in a longer 1873 chamber. Fired in a Schofield revolver, that jumped to 800 fps.

The original Colt loading with 40 grains of black powder would kiss a thousand fps. The later attenuated loading of 32 grains, and finally 30 grains provided 875 fps with a 250 grain bullet. Still good bit above the .45 ACP.

 

[Edward429451]

To match the Schofield and not the Colt? Really? Interesting. I like the 45 Colt. I'm glad the cartridge was resurrected by Ruger and the CAS. It's almost like a brand new cartridge when chambered into a Blackhawk or similar large frame modern revolver. Now it can be taken to new heights by the handloader.

I can't play CAS with my adj. sights, but that's all it wont do. 1911Tuner makes a good point. Loading a 250 gr boolit at 900 or 1000 fps fills the gap between the 45 acp and 44 Mag type power.

Where I live, my 45 acp is a little light for protection in these Rocky mountains, but on the other hand, I don't need a 350 gr 454 either. The 250 gr 45 Colt loads fill the niche nicely. I haven't loaded 9.0 gr of Unique but *.0 gr shot very well and had low deviation.

 

[44 AMP]

.45ACP was designed to match .45 Schoefield performance. At least that's how the story goes.

The Army adopted the Colt SAA, and the .45 Colt round. A bit later, they also adopted the S&W N0.3, with the Schoefield latch modification, which became the now famous Schoefield revolver. Along with that came the .45 Schoefield cartridge. Since the case was shorter than the colt, it could be fired in Colt guns. This is probably where the "long Colt" term comes from. I believe that eventually there was even a long colt loading that duplicated the Schoefield ballistics, but don't quote me on that.

Later, after the fiasco in the Phillippines with the .38 Long Colt, when the army was looking at going to an autopistol, they demaned it's round had to perform at least as well as the .45 Schoefield. And that's what they got in the .45ACP, a 230gr @850fps (+/- 30).

 

[BlueTrain]

There was an in-between .45 Colt cartridge for use in the Colt New Service revolver that was adopted around 1909 but I'm not sure if the army adopted it or not. The Marines did. That particular cartridge would not fit the Colt S.A.A., the rim being too big. Supposedly some Colt single actions would not accept the Schofield cartridge, now also called the .45 S&W. There was later a so-called .45 Colt Government cartridge that was supposed to fit either revolver. Either way, the Schofield did not last all that long in service and they were disposed of on the surplus market. The same thing happened to the remaining Colt single actions 30 years later.

Barnes states that the government issue .45 Colt, which he refers to as the ordnance loading, was a lighter load than the commercial load.