444 vs 450 vs 45-70

Don't get carried away. "The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy."
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.)
Heavy .444 Marlin Ammo - 335 gr. L.F.N.-G.C.(2,025fps/M.E.3,049 ft.lbs.)
Heavy 450 Marlin Ammo - 430gr. L.B.T. - L.F.N. (1,900 fps/M.E. 3,446 ft. lbs.)
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I'm not getting carried away...that's why I said I wasn't arguing, rather just learning. I was simply saying that the 444 isn't as inferior as some make it out to be! I'm comfortable that it has enough power to put a good hurting on a big ole brown bear!
 
I hunt in NY and I love my .450. I have to admit if you want more versatility in loads 45-70 will give you more choices, but the Leverevolution ammo I use does everything I ask it to.
I would pass on the .444
 
i do hunt in NY and would like to try bear ( the reason for this gun) range is usually 60-150 yards( mentioned before in previous post) and no i do not reload
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Ok, that helps a lot. Here are the options:

444 Marlin. Ammunition availability for this has gone down lately. My favorite factory load for this was the 265 grain Hornady flat point from Remington. This load is no longer available. In fact I can't find any 444 Marlin ammo on Remington's website, although that may be a function of the website's poor design.

Hornady has an excellent 265 gr. LeveRevolution round, but there are issues with it in older 444 Marlin guns with the slow 1-38 rifling twist. New 444s have a 1-20 twist and this would be a great load in one of them.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...3&categoryId=7980&categoryString=653***690***

45-70. The 45-70 has been around for more than 125 years and has been chambered in a large variety of guns of varying strength. Most factory ammo in 45-70 is loaded very softly out of respect for these legacy guns. A notable exception is the Hornady 325 grain LeveRevolution load. There are other hot loads available from the various "boutique" loaders such as Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...3&categoryId=7546&categoryString=653***690***

450 Marlin. The 450 Marlin is very similar to the hotter loads in 45-70. The difference is that there are no soft loads because there are no legacy guns to worry about in this chambering.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...3&categoryId=8954&categoryString=653***690***

So, given that you plan to hunt black bear, not grizzlies, I'd recommend a new/recent 444 with a 1-20 twist and the Hornady 265 grain. The hot loaded 45-70 or the 450 Marlin add an entire new dimension of power over the 444, but you don't need the extra power and probably don't want the recoil that it brings.
 
Another thing about the .444, its heaviest slugs top out just past where the lighter .45 cal slugs begin.

Now, a lot of the lever guns in .45-70 won't handle the length of the heaviest .45 cal bullets, but they will all handle slugs in the 400gr range, and some will feed the 500gr if loaded right. While the .444 is slightly faster and flatter shooting (although at ranges comfortable with the guns its not a huge difference) the .45s are throwing a slug 25% or so heavier.

I have a couple slugs a friend gave me that he had dug out of an old tree I had shot at. 400gr hard cast, and two FEET deep in the wood. The 265gr .444 just isn't up to that. Now, you (and I) don't really need that much penetration, but its nice to have, even if you don't need it.

I'm not badmouthing the .444, its a good gun. I just think that the .45-70 with modern guns and ammo, is a better one.
 
All 3 will do the job well. You wouldn't go wrong with any of them.
Ammunition availability and cost ought to be your main concern since you do not reload. Therefor I'd suggest, as many others have, the 45-70.
As for me, I'd go with the 444 as I have a 44 mag and will be reloading.
 
agreed w/ the .444 Marlin. My dad bought me my Marlin 444 when I was 15 years old. Would love to have a 45/70, but hey... my .444 is plenty capable of killing anything w/n the lower 48 states.

The biggest game I probablly will ever hunt is Elk and my Win MOD 70 in 7mm REM MAG is reserved for that (after I finish twealing & accurizing it). The most dangerous game I'll most likely hunt is Black Bear and the .444 &/or 12 gauge slugs will be utilized for it.

However, I'll let the .444 loose on some deer from time to time.
 
There is a wealth of great data posted here. My results with both a 444P and a 45/70 guide gun are the 45/70 has more facory offerings and is softer to shoot, but with handloads the 444 does everything I need it to do.
 
I would go for the .45-70 for reasons of versatility and ammo availability. .45-70 is loaded by nearly every major ammo maker and I've never been in a store which stocked .444 Marlin and/or .450 Marlin but did not stock .45-70. .45-70, in factory loadings, will also handle a much broader range of bullet weights and/or power levels than .444 or .450 will

The reason, you see, that the .450 Marlin was introduced was so that the big-name ammo makers (Winchester, Remington, Federal, Hornady, etc.) could load a .45-70 to its full potential without worrying about some idiot sticking the ammo in a gun that couldn't handle it (ex. Trapdoor Springfield). When stoked with boutique ammo like Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Garrett, or Double Tap, the .45-70 is every bit the equivalent of the .450 Marlin

The thing that drove me away from .444 Marlin is that bullet weight for this cartridge seems to top out just a bit over 300gr. To me, the whole point of a bigbore is the ability to use heavy bullets. 405gr, which is a middleweight bullet for .45-70, is substantially heavier than any .444 Marlin factory loading I've ever seen.
 
People like the .450 and 45-70 shooting 350 gr bullets at 2100 fps, yet appear to overlook the .444 shooting 335 gr at 2025 fps. Almost every discussion I have seen on the .444 limits its discussions to 265 gr bullets. Reloaders use 405 gr bullets with great success with the .444.

Yup, it is not easy to find .444 bullets on a store shelf more than 265 gr. It takes a bit of planning to wait 5 days or so for my Buffalo Bore which just happened to arrive today by chance. I don't have any problem believing I am adequately armed for anything I will encounter in the northern Idaho woods. The .444 is a great gun for those that are inclined.

If folks prefer the .450 and 45-70, so be it. I am entirely happy with my .444 and love the Buffalo Bore 335 gr bullets to boot. For those that reload, shooting 405 gr bullets is an option. Yup, no 540 Hammerheads, but I don't have the recoil of that bullet either. I have my .444 configured in such a way that I get about a 20 ga recoil out of it with a whole lot more bang on the other end.

I am quite willing to put up with some of the so called hardships of the .444 for a large bore rifle without the recoil of a 45-70. So, to each his own, but folks truly have misconceptions about this great gun. I wouldn't trade it for a .450 or 45-70 for the life of me. Great gun.
 
I have had my Marlin 1895M 450M for about a year and I do shoot it quite a bit on the range. Admittedly, 14 shots from the bench on the 1st time out resulted in ice on my shoulder and heavy bruising. I put a better pad and a muzzle brake on it and it is MUCH more usable. I shot 40 rounds the last time our, a few weeks ago, and was not even a little soar.

I tried lever-evolution twice, both of which resulted in Marlin Jam. I have not experienced that before or since with factory or hand loads with flat point bullets.

To tie it into the string, I have experienced a couple of issues with the 450 Marlin, but it is a sweet firing, accurate, and powerful lever action gun. I prefer it to the 444, but a 45-70 would be just as good IF you hand load. If not, go with the 450 Marlin.
 
I can't argue with the power factor of .450 and high end 45-70 loads, but I am happy with a 20 ga recoil and 80-% or more of the power you folks get out of your thumpers. A common .450 load is 350 gr bullets at 2100 fps. I am just shy of that with 335 gr at 2025 fps. For the added recoil you have to deal with, I will stay with my .444 that shoots like a 20 ga. Even my son likes it a whole lot better than shooting my .300 WSM and he only weighs about 150 pounds and is skinny as a rail.

Once again, folks disparage a great gun that has its place with the right bullets such as the 335 gr Buffalo Bore. No claims of being equal, but if you are recoil shy, this is a great choice if you configure it correctly and are looking for a large bore lever rifle.
 
I suspect you are quite right in your satisfaction with the 335 gr. slug in the .444. I hand loaded some 350 Gr. Fork FP bullets with 46.5 gr. Hogdon H-4198. The bullets are longer, but I am getting some great accuracy (2 1/2 " at 200 yards) and I do believe I am getting a flatter trajectory than with the Hornady 350 Gr. slugs. even though I could load more powder with the Hornady slugs. I am too lazy to get out of this string before I look, but I wonder how you would fare with the North Forks.
 
Dear Lever-Age 450M,

Thank you for the kind comments. I do not reload but I am aware that several folks with .444 reload up to 405 gr bullets with excellent accuracy and power. I have a medical condition that limits the recoil that is safe for me to handle. If not that for that, I would certainly consider the 45-70 with high end loads as my woods gun. On the other hand, I am now 53 so I suspect that I wouldn't want that much recoil anyway. The .444 with Buffalo Bore bullets will work.

I did notice that Hornady has an new high powered .444 265 gr bullet approaching 3400 ft-pds muzzle energy. I would like to hear what real life effects that this bullet has.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/wounded-grizzly-kills-hunter-remote-montana-14541945

My hope is that the upper limits approached with reloads will become available to us from the factory ammo out there. With the 1:20 twist in the modern .444 Marlins, larger bullets should be available from more ammo companies. Hopefully one day, the .444 bullet selection will put it in the large bore categories that the 45-70 and .450 occupy today.
 
Given the fact that the OP started this thread over 10 months ago, I would venture a wager that he's already made his decision...
 
Today, 05:28 PM #58
JACK308
Senior Member

Join Date: July 10, 2011
Posts: 277
the 444 is just a bigger 44 mag case you will have better luck with the 45/70.
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Criticizing a .444 Marlin is like an owner of a .300 WinMag criticizing an owner of a 30-06. The .300 WinMag gets about 20% more at the muzzle than a 30-06, likewise many of the 45-70 loads are 20% more than the .444. Yet, instead of recognizing the fact that the .444 gives a great bang for the buck with MUCH less recoil, just as the 30-06 gets the job done for many people that don't want the recoil of the .300 WinMag, instead, the internet threads on this subject are uniformly antagonistic towards the .444. Ironically, most internet threads are likewise antagonistic towards a .300 WinMag since the 30-06 does almost what the .300 does with more ammo available. Go figure!!

Folks, I ENJOY my .444 to no end. For a rifle with the recoil of a 20 ga the way I have mine set up, it gives me 335 gr bullets at 2025 fps out of the muzzle. That is real life power in my hands limited by my medical condition. I could buy a 45-70 but I CHOOSE not to, instead, the .444 is a GREAT gun.

For those of you that wish to denigrate this gun, go for it, but for those of us that know what it is capable of doing, sorry, but you folks simply don't know what you are missing. It is MUCH more than just an over sized .44 magnum. It is a great gun in it's own right and it never gets its due on these internet forums. Ammo is getting easier to find and higher quality. Hornady just updated their light mags and now with a 265 gr bullet at nearly 3400 ft-pds of muzzle energy, it is right up there with a .300 Win Mag in energy levels. I suspect over time, we will see larger selections of larger bullets at +p levels that will truly rival the 45-70 in many ways.

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/

Many that hand load get nearly 4000 ft-pds of muzzle energy out of the .444. Anyone should recognize that is serious business. In fact, anything over 3000 ft-pds of muzzle energy is serious business. So, go ahead and laugh all you want at my .444, it is a GREAT cartridge that is a real hard hitting big bore with very controllable recoil. Is it a 45-70? OF COURSE not, just as a 30-06 ain't a .300 WinMag, but So what? Just as the 30-06 does its job for what it is, so does the .444. I guess I should tell my friend who hunts elk with the lowly 270 that he has the wrong gun as well, except for the fact that he has taken about 50 in his lifetime to date, many with his .270. Shucks, I guess he should have had a .300 instead?
 
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