mapsjanhere
New member
At 150 yards I have no problem shooting at the bear with a 30-30. It's at 15 yards that I want the 450!
444 vs 450 vs 45-70
- Thread starter Ultra12
- Start date
grubbylabs
New member
I just got a Win 94 in 444 and I love it, but if you don't reload you may find more ammo selection with the 45-70 as it seems to be more popular. However Hornady's LeverEvolution for the .444 seems to be readily available and is quite accurate. But I already reload for a 44 mag so ammo is not a big issue for me, all but the brass and certain bullet profiles are interchangeable.
My reason s for the 45-70
If it helps, I would strongly reccomend the 45-70 over the other two mentioned rounds, especialy if you are going with a lever gun.
I will give you my humble opinions.
First, for what you say you want the gun for, Northeastern Hunting at your specified ranges, the 45-70 has several factory loads that will fit your needs as good or better than any of the others. My favorite, and I am sure many others being the good old Remington 405gr. Jacketed Soft point load, or .405JSP, at around 1300fps, give or take, it is an excellent load for anything in your area out to your 150 yards- as you specify, and a bit more depending on your skill and how you have the gun sighted. That load by itself will more than satisfy your requirements. Whether it is called a "Brush Gun" or not has nothing to do with what you are talking about in my opinion. The Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 is all you ever need to fit your requirements and much more, for that matter. You also have many, many factory load options, as in the "Leverlution" that would give you a signifigent increase in "Point Blank Range"- that is the distance that you can hold your sights " Dead On", or "To Point of Aim" without having to use holdover to compensate for bullet drop.
There are also much more powerful loads, from Cor-Bon for example that will turn your gun into a "Dino-Dropper" if you should feel the need. As far as cost of ammo, I think that you will be able to buy suitable 45-70 ammo for as inexpensive as anything else, and in my opinion you will find it much less expensive than the others.
As far as the price of the rifle itself, does the saving of say $50.00 Dollars or so matter when you are purchasing something that will last many decades? I am in a great financial bind myself right now, being as I am disabled at the age of 53, but try to envision yourself in say, twenty- five years saying, boy ain't it great that I saved a few bucks on that gun a couple of decades ago, look what we have done with that money in the last twenty-five years!
As another poster rightly mentioned before, the .444 uses .429 bullets and there is just not the same variety out there as is for the 45-70. And Brass and factory ammo for the .450 is not nearly as readily availible for for it either. In my humble opinion the 45-70 will still be hugely popular when the aforementioned rounds are fodder for the articles about "Obsolete Rounds" in the Gun Mags. And yes I have a grat personal respect for the round, I hope it did not show through in any way
. But those are the facts as I see them.
Best of luck with your new gun, whatever it may be!
As always, JMHO, and YMMV.
God Bless,
Willy Henderson
If it helps, I would strongly reccomend the 45-70 over the other two mentioned rounds, especialy if you are going with a lever gun.
I will give you my humble opinions.
First, for what you say you want the gun for, Northeastern Hunting at your specified ranges, the 45-70 has several factory loads that will fit your needs as good or better than any of the others. My favorite, and I am sure many others being the good old Remington 405gr. Jacketed Soft point load, or .405JSP, at around 1300fps, give or take, it is an excellent load for anything in your area out to your 150 yards- as you specify, and a bit more depending on your skill and how you have the gun sighted. That load by itself will more than satisfy your requirements. Whether it is called a "Brush Gun" or not has nothing to do with what you are talking about in my opinion. The Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 is all you ever need to fit your requirements and much more, for that matter. You also have many, many factory load options, as in the "Leverlution" that would give you a signifigent increase in "Point Blank Range"- that is the distance that you can hold your sights " Dead On", or "To Point of Aim" without having to use holdover to compensate for bullet drop.
There are also much more powerful loads, from Cor-Bon for example that will turn your gun into a "Dino-Dropper" if you should feel the need. As far as cost of ammo, I think that you will be able to buy suitable 45-70 ammo for as inexpensive as anything else, and in my opinion you will find it much less expensive than the others.
As far as the price of the rifle itself, does the saving of say $50.00 Dollars or so matter when you are purchasing something that will last many decades? I am in a great financial bind myself right now, being as I am disabled at the age of 53, but try to envision yourself in say, twenty- five years saying, boy ain't it great that I saved a few bucks on that gun a couple of decades ago, look what we have done with that money in the last twenty-five years!
As another poster rightly mentioned before, the .444 uses .429 bullets and there is just not the same variety out there as is for the 45-70. And Brass and factory ammo for the .450 is not nearly as readily availible for for it either. In my humble opinion the 45-70 will still be hugely popular when the aforementioned rounds are fodder for the articles about "Obsolete Rounds" in the Gun Mags. And yes I have a grat personal respect for the round, I hope it did not show through in any way
. But those are the facts as I see them.Best of luck with your new gun, whatever it may be!
As always, JMHO, and YMMV.
God Bless,
Willy Henderson
Deer and black bear......
at up to 150yds. Piece of cake for any of the rounds you mention, provided you do your part. At the longer range, you will have to practice a bit, to learn just how much to compensate for the drop, but it is something easily done.
The bear aren't armor plated monsters, nor are they old Ep the grizzly. or Alaskan brownies. The largest black bear ever taken in NY (at least through the 1970s when I lived there) was a 600lb monster. A real freak of nature, as black that get to 400lbs are giants and extremely rare there. And the whitetails are not as big as western muleys either.
I would give the .45-70 the nod, because of its versatility in factory loaded ammo. Since you don't handload, you will want something with as many choices as practical. The .45-70 standard factory load is a 405gr JSP at black powder speeds and pressures. And it will do a fine job on the deer and bear in your area, at the ranges you hunt. Also doesn't kick too bad in a rifle with decent weight, like a Marlin.
For longer shots, the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo with its pointed (plastic) tips makes for a little more flat shooting, and is safe in tube magazine lever guns. There is also a 300gr factory loading with a bit more speed, and the specialty heavy loads from Buffalo Bores, and a couple others is you feel you need the most power possible.
The drawback to the .450 Marlin is that there are no factory "light" loads. Its full "magnum .45-70" power, or nothing, unless you handload. Same for the .444. Regular .45-70 ammo is pretty common, and while not the cheapest stuff, it is still cheaper than many less common rounds.
The reason the .444 rifles are going a bit cheaper than .45-70 on Bunbroker is the popularity. Both carry the same MSRP brand new.
Your call, but to me, the slighly lower price of the .444 means nothing. Compare ammo costs, on Midway right now, Rem factory .444 is about a buck a box more than .45-70, but both are in the mid $30 range. Buffalo Bore heavy stuff is about $20 more in .45-70 and $30 more for the .444. The .450 is right in there as well. IF you like to shoot, handloading is something worthwhile for these big bores.
And even if you don't handload, save your brass. It is worth money. Somebody will be happy to buy it or trade you for it.
I've been shooting and reloading the .45-70 for nearly 30 years, and I think its a great round, and would choose it over the others, even if I had to pay a few bucks more for the rifle.
at up to 150yds. Piece of cake for any of the rounds you mention, provided you do your part. At the longer range, you will have to practice a bit, to learn just how much to compensate for the drop, but it is something easily done.
The bear aren't armor plated monsters, nor are they old Ep the grizzly. or Alaskan brownies. The largest black bear ever taken in NY (at least through the 1970s when I lived there) was a 600lb monster. A real freak of nature, as black that get to 400lbs are giants and extremely rare there. And the whitetails are not as big as western muleys either.
I would give the .45-70 the nod, because of its versatility in factory loaded ammo. Since you don't handload, you will want something with as many choices as practical. The .45-70 standard factory load is a 405gr JSP at black powder speeds and pressures. And it will do a fine job on the deer and bear in your area, at the ranges you hunt. Also doesn't kick too bad in a rifle with decent weight, like a Marlin.
For longer shots, the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo with its pointed (plastic) tips makes for a little more flat shooting, and is safe in tube magazine lever guns. There is also a 300gr factory loading with a bit more speed, and the specialty heavy loads from Buffalo Bores, and a couple others is you feel you need the most power possible.
The drawback to the .450 Marlin is that there are no factory "light" loads. Its full "magnum .45-70" power, or nothing, unless you handload. Same for the .444. Regular .45-70 ammo is pretty common, and while not the cheapest stuff, it is still cheaper than many less common rounds.
The reason the .444 rifles are going a bit cheaper than .45-70 on Bunbroker is the popularity. Both carry the same MSRP brand new.
Your call, but to me, the slighly lower price of the .444 means nothing. Compare ammo costs, on Midway right now, Rem factory .444 is about a buck a box more than .45-70, but both are in the mid $30 range. Buffalo Bore heavy stuff is about $20 more in .45-70 and $30 more for the .444. The .450 is right in there as well. IF you like to shoot, handloading is something worthwhile for these big bores.
And even if you don't handload, save your brass. It is worth money. Somebody will be happy to buy it or trade you for it.
I've been shooting and reloading the .45-70 for nearly 30 years, and I think its a great round, and would choose it over the others, even if I had to pay a few bucks more for the rifle.
jammin1237
New member
45-70 in a MODERN rifle... old trap doors cant take the heat... 45-70 has more brass, more bullet selection, more reload data, and is more cost effective than any of the above... here is a video i just took at the range this last weekend, 50 yards as fast as i was comfortable with in a 45-70 24" barrel for fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF9iWhL6G8M
-- get a guide gun if you are not worried about the long shots...
cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF9iWhL6G8M
-- get a guide gun if you are not worried about the long shots...
cheers
Below I have listed the velocity/energy, trajectory, & Hornady's HITS data for all 3 rounds mentioned. All data was compiled by using Hornady Ballistics charts from thier website & all rounds listed are thier LeverEvolution rounds.
444 Marlin 265 gr. FTX= HITS:1071... Velocity/Energy: MUZ- 2325/3180, 100yds- 1971/2285, 200yds- 1652/1606, 300yds- 1380/1120. Trajectory MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -1.4, 300yds -18.6
45-70 Govt 325 gr. FTX= HITS:1242... Velocity/Energy: MUZ-2050/3032, 100yds- 1729/2158, 200yds- 1450/1516, 300yds- 1225/1083. Trajectory: MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -4.1, 300yds -27.8
450 Marlin 325 gr. FTX= HITS: 1355... Velocity/Energy: MUZ-2225/3572, 100 yds-1887/2569, 200yds-1585/1813, 300yds- 1331/1278. Trajectory: MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -2.2, 300yds -21.3
***My question is that if why is it being said that the .444 Marlin is so inferior to the 45/70 GOVT & the .450 Marlin? The trajectory for the .444 is better than the other 2. The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy. However, the .444 falls short on the HITS chart (basically what type & weight of an animal you can use a certian round for as compiled by Hornady).
This isn't an attempt to argue, it is my attemot to learn. I always figured that the big bore 444 would be plenty enough gun for any game in North America and some of the bigger game in Africa...obviously not the monsters out there as far as elephant, lion, etc...
444 Marlin 265 gr. FTX= HITS:1071... Velocity/Energy: MUZ- 2325/3180, 100yds- 1971/2285, 200yds- 1652/1606, 300yds- 1380/1120. Trajectory MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -1.4, 300yds -18.6
45-70 Govt 325 gr. FTX= HITS:1242... Velocity/Energy: MUZ-2050/3032, 100yds- 1729/2158, 200yds- 1450/1516, 300yds- 1225/1083. Trajectory: MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -4.1, 300yds -27.8
450 Marlin 325 gr. FTX= HITS: 1355... Velocity/Energy: MUZ-2225/3572, 100 yds-1887/2569, 200yds-1585/1813, 300yds- 1331/1278. Trajectory: MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -2.2, 300yds -21.3
***My question is that if why is it being said that the .444 Marlin is so inferior to the 45/70 GOVT & the .450 Marlin? The trajectory for the .444 is better than the other 2. The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy. However, the .444 falls short on the HITS chart (basically what type & weight of an animal you can use a certian round for as compiled by Hornady).
This isn't an attempt to argue, it is my attemot to learn. I always figured that the big bore 444 would be plenty enough gun for any game in North America and some of the bigger game in Africa...obviously not the monsters out there as far as elephant, lion, etc...
Old Time Hunter
New member
Too many people base their opinion on perception and not on reality. As I alluded to earlier, I have all three and have used them all. They will all work for almost anything from squirrels to elephants, but to me the .444 does everything the others do without the abuse (especially the .450 in a guide gun)...And I can use .44 Mags from my side arm in a pinch.
Yes sir, that is what I thought. The .444 packs plenty of punch on the back end...it basically kills on both ends of the rifle. The ballistic data shows that it is capable, I just didn't see what made the others soooo much better than my trusty Marlin in .444. It is going to be my go to bear rifle & from reading this thread I wanted to make sure that I was good to go in my thoughts.
If you plan on only shooting 60- 150 yards you might want to consider a simple .44 magnum. It's much cheaper to shoot and there are a lot of ammo choices.
It's going to be slower out of the barrel than a 45-70, but much less recoil for you to deal with. The muzzle velocity of a 240 gr from a 7 inch hand gun barrel is about 1550, so from a rifle of at least 16 inches you should get another 150-200 fps. That would give you plenty of energy for a kill on a black bear at 60 yards, probably enough at 100, but after than it will fall fast and lose energy.
I think 150 would be pushing it, but are you planning to scope this gun? I mean, I honestly couldn't hit anything past 100 yards (and that's from a solid rest) without a scope.
It's going to be slower out of the barrel than a 45-70, but much less recoil for you to deal with. The muzzle velocity of a 240 gr from a 7 inch hand gun barrel is about 1550, so from a rifle of at least 16 inches you should get another 150-200 fps. That would give you plenty of energy for a kill on a black bear at 60 yards, probably enough at 100, but after than it will fall fast and lose energy.
I think 150 would be pushing it, but are you planning to scope this gun? I mean, I honestly couldn't hit anything past 100 yards (and that's from a solid rest) without a scope.
No, the 444 or 45-70 are quite a bit more powerful than the .44 magnum. I went through the same dilemma you are going through and decided that for where I hunt and within my budget the .44 magnum made the most sense.
Are you going to shoot at 150 yards without a scope? If so, I would suggest a good peep sight on the rifle, and 20/20 vision.
Are you going to shoot at 150 yards without a scope? If so, I would suggest a good peep sight on the rifle, and 20/20 vision.
Marlin Choice
The Right Rifle For You is the, Marlin Classic Model 1895. It is A Lever-Action, Side Loading Rifle. It Has A Four Round Tubular Magazine. Plus One in the Chamber. It Has A 22" Inch Barrel And It Takes A "45/70 Gov't" Round. It Weigh's 7.5 Pounds. And Has A Overall Length of 40.5 Inches. And the Stock is Made of American Black Walnut. And About the Ammuntion. Just Get 45/70 Gov't. It is only a Little Bit More Expensive. And It is Widely More Avaliable. Then They other Rounds, You Were Talking About. Hope to Help
The Right Rifle For You is the, Marlin Classic Model 1895. It is A Lever-Action, Side Loading Rifle. It Has A Four Round Tubular Magazine. Plus One in the Chamber. It Has A 22" Inch Barrel And It Takes A "45/70 Gov't" Round. It Weigh's 7.5 Pounds. And Has A Overall Length of 40.5 Inches. And the Stock is Made of American Black Walnut. And About the Ammuntion. Just Get 45/70 Gov't. It is only a Little Bit More Expensive. And It is Widely More Avaliable. Then They other Rounds, You Were Talking About. Hope to Help
grubbylabs
New member
Ultra12 you compared a 44-40 to the 45-70 according to your screen shot there. So yes it is going to be quite a bit different.
kimbershot
New member
i vote 45-70. i have a contender 16" carbine. i load farter loads all the way to knock the fillings out loads. basically, a pleasure to shoot lee 350-405 cast behind trailboss. very accurate for me out to 100yds. even though i know it is effective farther out. 
Don't get carried away. "The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy."
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.)
Heavy .444 Marlin Ammo - 335 gr. L.F.N.-G.C.(2,025fps/M.E.3,049 ft.lbs.)
Heavy 450 Marlin Ammo - 430gr. L.B.T. - L.F.N. (1,900 fps/M.E. 3,446 ft. lbs.)
The .444 is a third choice at best if we are talking about dangerous/large game ammunition. Even though it is an exageration, it's like saying a .223 is "more gun" than a "Ruger Only" .45 Colt load. One could kill anything on the earth and the other is best suited for varmints. Heavy .452 bullets will blow the doors off smaller .429 caliber ammunition. There is a world of difference in shooting a 325 grain expanding bullet and a LBT 430 grain hard cast. The .45-70 will easily kill anything on earth. That is the beauty of the LBT hard cast bullets - a large destructive meplat on bullets that penetrate like nothing else (except Punch bullets but even then it is close.)
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.)
Heavy .444 Marlin Ammo - 335 gr. L.F.N.-G.C.(2,025fps/M.E.3,049 ft.lbs.)
Heavy 450 Marlin Ammo - 430gr. L.B.T. - L.F.N. (1,900 fps/M.E. 3,446 ft. lbs.)
The .444 is a third choice at best if we are talking about dangerous/large game ammunition. Even though it is an exageration, it's like saying a .223 is "more gun" than a "Ruger Only" .45 Colt load. One could kill anything on the earth and the other is best suited for varmints. Heavy .452 bullets will blow the doors off smaller .429 caliber ammunition. There is a world of difference in shooting a 325 grain expanding bullet and a LBT 430 grain hard cast. The .45-70 will easily kill anything on earth. That is the beauty of the LBT hard cast bullets - a large destructive meplat on bullets that penetrate like nothing else (except Punch bullets but even then it is close.)
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I use those heavy Buffalo Bore 430 gr. loads out of my 22" 1895 45-70 and it is very accurate with them. Recoil is stout but manageable. If I really want to hear the metal gong ring loudly, I'll launch one out of my 34" barrel Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express. That rifle is heavy enough that they feel almost like a regular 45-70 load out of the 1895.
BusGunner007
New member
I would choose the .45-70
I looked at all those cartridges mentioned and did choose the .45-70 GOVT.
My choice for the rifle was equally as 'bland', some might say.
Marlin 1895 w/22" bbl.
Added a DRC Large-lever loop; might add a couple of other things for the ejector and trigger, but otherwise it's a plain-old .45-70 lever-action ( with the crossbolt safety; fine by me as it works like some of my other rifles... ).
This ammo is excellent for this cartridge; worth the read, for sure...
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/
My particular choice in the launcher: top of photo
Once I decided on this rifle/cartridge I was VERY happy with it.
I looked at all those cartridges mentioned and did choose the .45-70 GOVT.
My choice for the rifle was equally as 'bland', some might say.
Marlin 1895 w/22" bbl.
Added a DRC Large-lever loop; might add a couple of other things for the ejector and trigger, but otherwise it's a plain-old .45-70 lever-action ( with the crossbolt safety; fine by me as it works like some of my other rifles... ).
This ammo is excellent for this cartridge; worth the read, for sure...
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/
My particular choice in the launcher: top of photo
Once I decided on this rifle/cartridge I was VERY happy with it.