Stevie-Ray
New member
OK I'll bite. What the hell kind of bullets are those that have that kind of velocity, yet yield only those amounts of energy? Solid teflon? A light element like tantalum? ($$$) Inquiring minds and all that.
.40S&W Why the haters?
- Thread starter XpatBubba
- Start date
EK and KK in FM
New member
RBCD Total Fragmenting Soft Points
Go on their website--RBCD.com
They have probably the best self defense cartridge out there, but it is expensive. You probably won't want to shoot much in practice, but won't penetrate a person and the damage inflicted is probably going to stop an attack.
Go on their website--RBCD.com
They have probably the best self defense cartridge out there, but it is expensive. You probably won't want to shoot much in practice, but won't penetrate a person and the damage inflicted is probably going to stop an attack.
"won't penetrate a person"
Penetration is good where I'm from. Just brusing or barely breaking the skin isn't enough.
You mean it just bounces off them? Sounds like rubber bullets.
Oh, you mean it won't penetrate far into a person. Or do you mean it won't go through a person and out the back side?
I shoot what's accurate in my guns. Which hollowpoint is a hair better than the next is secondary.
John
Penetration is good where I'm from. Just brusing or barely breaking the skin isn't enough.
You mean it just bounces off them? Sounds like rubber bullets.
Oh, you mean it won't penetrate far into a person. Or do you mean it won't go through a person and out the back side? I shoot what's accurate in my guns. Which hollowpoint is a hair better than the next is secondary.
John
I like the .40 because I've seen firsthand what it does to someone when they're shot with it. In fact, after I saw that, I bought a .40 the next day. I'm sure a .45 just as effectively stop someone, but I haven't seen it with my own eyes yet. So .40 it is for me.
And just FYI, ya'll have been debating this for 8 pages now. I'm just sayin...
b
And just FYI, ya'll have been debating this for 8 pages now. I'm just sayin...
b
Winterhawk56
New member
Lets face it, not too many people can shoot a .45 without extensive practice as it DOES have violent recoil. The 9MM tends to penetrate and or go through its subject (my opinion) and based on past unfortunate experiences.
For the record I have all three calibers and prefer the .40, on a side note I also love my 10MM!
The .40 may be a compromise but more people have better accuracy with the .40 rather that the .45 and the 9mm is not a good caliber in general (my opinion)
A few individuals on this web site made a great statement and that was "its not the gun, its the gunner"
All in all, this makes for some GREAT reading!
For the record I have all three calibers and prefer the .40, on a side note I also love my 10MM!
The .40 may be a compromise but more people have better accuracy with the .40 rather that the .45 and the 9mm is not a good caliber in general (my opinion)
A few individuals on this web site made a great statement and that was "its not the gun, its the gunner"
All in all, this makes for some GREAT reading!
"Lets face it, not too many people can shoot a .45 without extensive practice as it DOES have violent recoil."
Violent? From day one with it I never, ever thought that. I dislike snappy rounds like the 9 and .40. I like the big shove of the .45.
I can shoot the 9 okay, even in my Rohrbaugh, but I don't have to like it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling my BHP or CZ-75B, it's just that when I want to relax and plink I shoot a .45 - Kimber Gold Match, Colt WWI Repro or FNP-45.
Violent? I just don't see it.
John
Violent? From day one with it I never, ever thought that. I dislike snappy rounds like the 9 and .40. I like the big shove of the .45.
I can shoot the 9 okay, even in my Rohrbaugh, but I don't have to like it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling my BHP or CZ-75B, it's just that when I want to relax and plink I shoot a .45 - Kimber Gold Match, Colt WWI Repro or FNP-45.
Violent? I just don't see it.
John
"RBCD is a scam."
Dang, somehow I missed the final report.
"A 3 year, multi-agency testing effort was conducted and the results compiled and documented. The long awaited USSOCOM/ARDEC report on LeMas ammo was made available for distribution to authorized organizations in August of 2007. Virtually every single claim made by Mr. Bulmer and Mr. Hamilton regarding LeMas bullet design, manufacture, construction methodology and composition, pyrophoric and thermodynamic properties, behavior in tissue simulant, intermediate barrier capability, terminal performance in tissue were all determined to be FALSE. Hopefully this will put to rest any residual doubts about the fraudulent nature of LeMas "BMT". Note that the USSOCOM/ARDEC report validates all the information we have released publicly to date above."
Dang, somehow I missed the final report.
"A 3 year, multi-agency testing effort was conducted and the results compiled and documented. The long awaited USSOCOM/ARDEC report on LeMas ammo was made available for distribution to authorized organizations in August of 2007. Virtually every single claim made by Mr. Bulmer and Mr. Hamilton regarding LeMas bullet design, manufacture, construction methodology and composition, pyrophoric and thermodynamic properties, behavior in tissue simulant, intermediate barrier capability, terminal performance in tissue were all determined to be FALSE. Hopefully this will put to rest any residual doubts about the fraudulent nature of LeMas "BMT". Note that the USSOCOM/ARDEC report validates all the information we have released publicly to date above."
vox rationis
New member
Let's do an experiment. Get an Airweight J frame revolver and shoot 50 rounds of .38 spl +P ammo out of it (I won't even mention shooting full power .357 mag ammo out of a Scandium frame revolver, as I care for you as a person
). Next, shoot 50 rounds of .45 out of an all steel compact 1911. Note how badly your hand hurts after each of the 50 rounds. Next note how important the shooting platform is when it comes to the felt recoil of various calibers. Stevie-Ray
New member
Indeed. I don't find personal defense loads of the .45 ACP objectionable with even a 3" lightweight, which is what I carry everyday.
inSight-NEO
New member
Actually, I like the .40 S&W caliber; particularly the XD40.
Now, is this load my favorite? Nope...I prefer the .45ACP above all others, even .357 Magnum. Is this load "snappier" than, say, the 9mm? Overall, I believe so, but not always. It depends on the round...to me at least.
However, the .40 S&W has been shown (based on many, many accounts I have read) to be a truly effective round. In addition, this round allows for greater capacity (and is lighter for use in a CCW) vs. the likes of .45ACP while also offering, IMHO, more optimal "stopping" power vs. the 9mm. As a bonus, you can find .40 S&W ammunition in abundance, whether it be practice loads or HD loads. Sadly, the same cannot be said for practically every other "popular" handgun load out there. To me, this fact alone puts the .40 S&W way up on the list. The rest is icing on the cake.
Now, is this load my favorite? Nope...I prefer the .45ACP above all others, even .357 Magnum. Is this load "snappier" than, say, the 9mm? Overall, I believe so, but not always. It depends on the round...to me at least.
However, the .40 S&W has been shown (based on many, many accounts I have read) to be a truly effective round. In addition, this round allows for greater capacity (and is lighter for use in a CCW) vs. the likes of .45ACP while also offering, IMHO, more optimal "stopping" power vs. the 9mm. As a bonus, you can find .40 S&W ammunition in abundance, whether it be practice loads or HD loads. Sadly, the same cannot be said for practically every other "popular" handgun load out there. To me, this fact alone puts the .40 S&W way up on the list. The rest is icing on the cake.
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Cold Steel
New member
I don't think people hate the .40S&W. It's just that it was a disappointment. The goal has long been to create the "perfect storm" of the 125gr JHP .357 mag, and neither the .40 or the .357Sig did that. In fact, the .40 is a larger round, but doesn't deliver much more practical stopping power than a 9mm. At the same time, the 9mm began to improve slightly because of revised bullet designs and better powder formuations.
So while the .40S&W is a bit better than the 9mm, it wasn't as better as many people hoped. There have been a number of failures to stop, and one retired agent told me about a 42-year old woman who was shot in the chest with the Treasury load .40S&W and kept right on with her attack. No drugs, no explanation, and it wasn't an isolated incident.
Truthfully, it's a better round (probably) than the 9mm, but it's not the improvement everyone was anticipating. Plus it was a heavier round, as I said.
If I had my choice between a 9mm Federal 115 JHP load and two extra rounds or more, yes, I'd take it over the .40 just to get the lower recoil and extra round. Having said that, I still think it's a better round, just not enough to sneeze at.
The real sleeper is the 10mm, a real missed boat if you excuse my mixed metaphors. I think that's what many would have been happy with.
So while the .40S&W is a bit better than the 9mm, it wasn't as better as many people hoped. There have been a number of failures to stop, and one retired agent told me about a 42-year old woman who was shot in the chest with the Treasury load .40S&W and kept right on with her attack. No drugs, no explanation, and it wasn't an isolated incident.
Truthfully, it's a better round (probably) than the 9mm, but it's not the improvement everyone was anticipating. Plus it was a heavier round, as I said.
If I had my choice between a 9mm Federal 115 JHP load and two extra rounds or more, yes, I'd take it over the .40 just to get the lower recoil and extra round. Having said that, I still think it's a better round, just not enough to sneeze at.
The real sleeper is the 10mm, a real missed boat if you excuse my mixed metaphors. I think that's what many would have been happy with.
Cold Steel
New member
Regarding the 10mm recoil, the FBI should have offered two loads -- one for those who could master the recoil and a lighter load for those who can't / won't.
While were talking about energy and handgun loads...
KE = .5(mv^2)
Divide by 7000 and again by 32 to put it into ft pounds of energy.
My 165 grain speers moving at 1165fps have 499 ft/# energy
A 230 grain .45 moving at 900fps has 415 ft/#
Corbon +p 9mm 115 grain at 1320fps yields 454 ft/#
.40 has just as much energy as any of the other calibers deemed "sufficient" for self defense.
Shot placement > caliber, energy, hydrostatic shock, penetration, blah blah blah
KE = .5(mv^2)
Divide by 7000 and again by 32 to put it into ft pounds of energy.
My 165 grain speers moving at 1165fps have 499 ft/# energy
A 230 grain .45 moving at 900fps has 415 ft/#
Corbon +p 9mm 115 grain at 1320fps yields 454 ft/#
.40 has just as much energy as any of the other calibers deemed "sufficient" for self defense.
Shot placement > caliber, energy, hydrostatic shock, penetration, blah blah blah
wvshootist
New member
I don't hate any calibers. In fact I would like to have at least a couple of guns in every caliber ever made.
IDAHO83501
New member
Limp wristed shooters unite, continue complaining about hard or sharp recoiling 40 S&W rounds, the rest of us will keep on shooting and enjoying those hard kicking 40's, 45's, 44mag, and other " unfriendly " powerful rounds.