40S&W…Have you seen the deals?

There was never an issue with FBI agents handling the 10mm. This is a myth. I don't know how it got started but it's pretty easy to verify that it can't be true.

1. BEFORE the FBI ever issued 10mm, they settled on a reduced loading that was identical to what the .40S&W would be when it was later developed. The FBI never issued full power 10mm, they only issued their reduced 10mm loading which was equivalent to what the .40S&W would be when it was later developed.

2. The reason they moved away from the 10mm relatively quickly had to do with problems with the 10mm 1076 S&W pistols which were eventually recalled in 1991. The FBI initially went back to 9mm but then made the switch to .40S&W in 1997.

1988 FBI develops the 10mm FBI loading.
1989 FBI officially switches to 10mm.
May 1990 FBI begins issuing S&W 1076 pistols in 10mm.
May 1991 S&W 1076 pistols are recalled.
1991 FBI begins issuing SIG pistols in 9mm.
1997 FBI issues pistols in .40S&W.

So the reduced FBI 10mm loading was developed BEFORE any 10mm pistols were issued to agents, full power 10mm was never issued to agents, and the reason for dropping 10mm was problems with the S&W 1076 pistols not agents having trouble with the caliber/loading.
 
That is 100% correct.

That's why the 40 was created. They figured out the load that was modeled for the 10mm FBI load had wasted space in the 10mm case. 40 created that fit the 9mm.

10mm in mythic FPS was never fielded. Mythic Norma loads people mention, I start digging it just doesn't seem like 10mm was ever commercially a hit and on the shelf loads weren't all that crazy nuclear. Top it off that at the time of mythic nuclear 10mm, bullets required FPS to expand well. Thanks to drag and FMJ on target don't vaporize like a steel backstop, all FMJ handgun rounds are capable of the same depth.

10mm HST today is very low FPS. Bullets just don't need big FPS anymore.

As LukcyGunner says on their 10mm test section, bullets stop performing as designed when you start loading them high (bullet failure).

Bullets are skived and bonded now. The 9mm is uniquely back end heavy. Drag isn't as limiting on required FPS. It's a good combination.
 
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For self-defense loadings, or even the mainstream pistol sports, I don't think I've ever heard anyone even bring it up.

If you're shooting silhouette then it might be worth looking into.
 
Wildcat,
A larger frontal diameter after expansion will have more drag but is creating more tissue damage.
I thought this was what we wanted?
 
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You want sufficient penetration to get to the vitals in combination with good expansion.

Any of the service pistol calibers can achieve this goal.
 
Pumpkin said:
Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?
Click to expand...

The problem started when the National Socialists decided to arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents, and the training costs and qualification requirements associated.

Comedy and high jinks to follow.


Red
 
...arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents...
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As nearly as I can tell, only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms. Do you have some evidence to support your assertion?
 
Pumpkin said:
Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?
Click to expand...
The problem was more women agents who had trouble with the .40 recoil.

Some men (maybe a lot) had the same problem but were reluctant to admit it.

So the FBI had a problem and the solution was the 9mm.

Most people shot the 9mm better. Military vets were used to the 9mm. Magazine capacities increased.

The silver lining in this storm cloud was that, over the years, gradual improvements in the bullets for the 9mm gave it performance that brought it close to the abilities of the .40 S&W cartridge.

That made the perfectly pragmatic return to the 9mm fine with everybody.

Happy ending.
 
Trivia quiz addition for history buffs.

What did the NYC PD do when they had a similar problem with the increasing numbers of women entering the department?

They issued a special revolver for the women.

What was it?
 
JohnKSa said:
As nearly as I can tell, only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms. Do you have some evidence to support your assertion?
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How about all the new armed IRS agents?
No doubt, an accurate make up of what the citizenry of the country really looks like, as some would say.
 
How about them? :D

I was responding to a comment that all FBI employees, not just field agents, were armed. I believe that is a false statement, but I could be wrong and so I asked for supporting information.
 
JohnKSa said:
As nearly as I can tell, only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms. Do you have some evidence to support your assertion?
Click to expand...

2/3 of the FBI are Field and Support agents.

Support agents outnumber Special agents by 35%.

Which means that the Democrat National Socialists increased the training and qualification requirement by 135%.

Comedy and high jinks to ensue.




Red
 
Red Devil

2/3 of the FBI are Field and Support agents.

Support agents outnumber Special agents by 35%.
Click to expand...
Not every FBI employee is an "agent".
Try as I might, I can't find any such job as a "Support agent".

So your claim of:
The problem started when the National Socialists decided to arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents,
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Is nonsense.
 
I looked into job with FBI. Neighbor across the street used to work there, so I talked to him.

He told me they wouldn't take me as an normal employee (agents?) who would be entitled to pension, because I had past age 40. But they would take me as an analyst (contractor?). My brother applied for position in their technology department when he got his CS degree. It was an "agent" position
and firearm training was mandatory. He didn't like it so he didn't go further.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
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"decided to arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents, and the training costs and qualification requirements associated."

Uhm.... no.

By that "logic," FBI's janitorial staff is packing heat and ready to do battle. Along with its file clerks, IT professionals, secretarial staff, receptionists, etc. etc. etc. Although it would be cool if the FBI's language specialists packed heat, because they could arrest you in a bunch of different languages to provide that "international flair."

That's one of the most ludicrous claims I've ever seen about the FBI. Nothing is farther from the truth.

Total FBI workforce is around 35,000 people.

Total FBI worforce authorized to carry firearms in the course of their duties is approximately 14,000 (that number is a few years old).

FBI Special Agents are, by and large (but there are a few exceptions) authorized to carry firearms.

There is NO SUCH ROLE CLASSIFICATION as "support agent."

There is support staff. FBI support personnel are NOT agents, nor are they authorized to carry firearms, nor are they trained in the use of firearms.

I worked closely with a large number of FBI personnel on a project a few years back. Out of about 200, fewer than a dozen on that project were FBI Special Agents and were thus armed.

The rest of the FBI cadre were not armed, they were not trained in firearms use, nor would they ever be because they were not law enforcement personnel. They were support personnel.
 
Any doubt that DEI has not affected weapons choices, training requirements, etc. for various government and non government agencies including the FBI is people just being naive to what’s been happening. Right or Wrong, it is happening and I would argue that it has played a part in the adoption of the 9mm over the wicked recoiling 40S&W, for some/most organizations.
 
And let’s leave money out of this discussion, at least in regards to government agencies. OUR TAX MONEY flows like water through these groups.
 
Any doubt that DEI has not affected weapons choices, training requirements, etc. for various government and non government agencies including the FBI is people just being naive to what’s been happening.
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It's certainly possible that is the case, but that doesn't justify making up "evidence" or citing incorrect "evidence", or using flawed reasoning to support the assertion.

A couple of examples from this thread:

1. The FBI never issued full power 10mm, so claims that it was discontinued as an issue caliber due to agents (female or otherwise) having issues with the recoil of full power 10mm are incorrect.

2. Only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms, so claims that a decision to issue all FBI employees firearms and train them in the use of firearms drove them to a lighter recoiling caliber than 40 S&W due to massively training costs are incorrect.
I would argue that it has played a part in the adoption of the 9mm over the wicked recoiling 40S&W, for some/most organizations.
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If a person wants to argue that, then they can either state their claim as a personal opinion (which doesn't necessarily need to be supported at all) or support it with evidence, either in the form of (correct) facts or logical reasoning that is not flawed.

Even if a claim/assertion is true, supporting it with flawed reasoning or made up/incorrect evidence is problematic.
 
" The FBI never issued full power 10mm, so claims that it was discontinued as an issue caliber due to agents (female or otherwise) having issues with the recoil of full power 10mm are incorrect. "

Lot of silly crap all over the internet about 10mm being WAY TOO POWERFUL FOR THE TEENY TINY LITTLE GIRL AGENTS AND WIMPY GIRLYMAN AGENTS!

Even here.

And it's pretty much complete crap.

Yes, some agents did have problems with the 10mm, but not because of the SUPER FIERCE UNGODLY POWERFUL RECOIL O'DEATH!

The guns were simply too big grip wise for some agents to handle effectively.

But the biggest problem with the 10mm S&W's in FBI service?

The failure rate. Of the guns. It was absolutely atrocious. And it wasn't because of the ultra powerful ammunition. It was because of poor quality control from Smith.

So, not long after rolling out the 10mm Smiths, FBI pulled them from service and went back to 9mm Sigs.

By that time the .40 S&W, which had been a tightly held secret project between S&W and Winchester, became known.

The initial .40 S&W rounds duplicated the ballistics of the 10mm FBI load.

So, shortly after, FBI switched guns again, going to the Glock in .40 S&W.

Here's where it gets interesting...

The little girl agents and girlyman agents who couldn't handle the massively powerful 10mm because it was so... massively powerful?

They were, generally, more than able to handle Glocks in .40. Which, because they were lighter than the S&W 1076 and fired a cartridge of equal ballistics, should have had even fiercer and more deadly recoil and been even more uncontrollable... right?

Not really, no. Many of the same agents who struggled to grip the 1076 because of its frame dimensions, and thus struggled to qualify with the gun or use it effectively, had no such problems with the Glocks.

Funny how that works. Or worked.
 
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